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Improve Your Gas Mileage with Hydrogen
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Comments: 34
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The plates do not touch one another +-+-+-+-
I was using a PWM to regulate the power. in the video
I was using 3.75 VDC @ 15 Amps without electrolytes
Just plain city tap water.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 07 Apr : 13:23
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Bryan,
New guy here, so please bear with me.
It seems that it may not be practical to generate enough hydrogen to power a large ICE directly, so should I assume, (careful about that!), that the generator is used in conjuction with gasoline?
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Comments: 3
Registered: 16 Jun : 18:20
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I've just stumbled upon this site and i was wondering if you could produce enough hydrogen to run a moped without having to add any petrol,if you could then you should get in touch with Honda or Yamaha,etc....(mopeds are the most popular and abundant source of transport in the world,though not for us in the western world)...also have you thought of trying to collect the gasses to sell to a company like B.O.C or a similar company.(how do they make the oxygen that they sell to hospitals?and could you make it cheaper?).Great site by the way,i think im going to try and make my own hydrogen now.Sorry if my questions seem stupid to you,but its the only way i know to learn.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 26 Sep : 13:04
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Dude honda and all theese other companies have known about this tech for decades they supress it for the oil companies
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Comments: 1
Registered: 23 Aug : 14:44
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I just came across your site. Do you know how much gas was evolved per unit time? Also, has anyone have knowledge or has built and tested a pulse frequency hydrolysers?
Jeff
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Comments: 4
Registered: 26 Aug : 18:42
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i am planing of these cars baced off this design i have full funding for this
however i have also contacted the news station that did the reportnig on this subject if anyone has the copy of the panent of his generator also i would like your plans if something happens to you? who elce will have a copy? you should post the plans in detial on step by step prossess if you can supply me with this i can also help fund your project my friend is very well off and wants to support this but we need to see your prototype in more detial
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Comments: 2
Registered: 23 Jul : 05:36
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There is a One guy in Sri Lanka, who has a H2 generator and used to run his car. he says he can run 80Km fron a One leter of Water... for more detail contackt me via Skype "anurakumarasiri"
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Comments: 1
Registered: 25 Sep : 02:06
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what is pwm? and much hydrogen can this produce?
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Comments: 1
Registered: 08 Nov : 10:59
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PWM means pulse width modulation. In English, the amount of time the circuit is on (or off). For instance, a PWM of 3 milliseconds means that the circuit is turned on, then off every 3 ms. You will see the on-off cycles measured in Hertz or hz.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 03 Jun : 16:10
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Pulse Width Modulation is measured in (1) frequency (pulses or cycles per second, typically expressed with the label "Hertz"), (2) duty-cycle (that ratio of ON vs OF expressed as a percentage; 50% duty cycle means that the signal is divided equally between being ON 50% and OFF 50%, 25% duty-cycle means it's ON 25% and OFF 75% during one cycle), and (3) amplitude (the "strength" of the signal, measured in terms of electromotive force in Volts, volume rate of flow called "current" in Amperes -Amps for short- , or combination of those two which represents heating capability in a purely resistive load called "power" measured in Watts.
There are three approaches to regulating the amount of HHO production in response to engine characteristics (such as RPM and/or load): (1) electricity used for electrolysis being constantly ON with either no regulation at all (dangerous) or with asynchronous long period switching OFF based on some measurement (eg, HHO pressure or long water level), (2) varying the amplitude of the applied electricity power (by controlling either voltage or current) in analog mode based upon monitored variables in the system (eg, engine speed or throttle position), or (3) using PWM electricity that is generated by an electronic device that monitors certain variables. The PWM method is arguably the best approach as it is the most reliable and being a digital mode can be easily controlled by microprocessor or state circuits that monitor a larger number of engine and system variables (eg, vacuum, cyclinder head temp, knock sensor, air temp, engine speed, HHO pressure, etc etc). But the PWM approach requires engineering expertise/knowledge to design and make. The best trade-off I've seen yet in simplticity vs functionality for PWM controllers is the DIY design from Run-Your-Car-On-Water.
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Comments: 3
Registered: 11 Oct : 15:26
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In 3 gallons of water, how much salt? Mike Dill
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Comments: 1
Registered: 21 Aug : 09:50
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er... salt may not be such a hot idea
the chlorine gas it produces is kinda bad for you.
try sodium hydroxide. you'll find it causes no corrosion on the metal plates as well.
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Comments: 5
Registered: 01 Jun : 23:24
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SODIUM HYDROXIDE IS REPORTED TO BE CAUSTIC! DON'T TOUCH IT
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Comments: 2
Registered: 15 Jan : 05:45
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hey you've seen kalium it's allaside and everywhere.like buffalo soldiers came .................so i have allso nitrogen and phosphor.. And in this country where I come from the phosphor is the real problem ............................................ in my sea
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Comments: 2
Registered: 15 Jan : 05:45
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hey you've seen kalium it's allaside and everywhere.like buffalo soldiers came .................so i have allso nitrogen and phosphor.. And in this country where I come from the phosphor is the real problem ............................................ in my sea yeah maybe to you look like great lakes or something but yeah we have connection to atlantic ocean and that way to 7. NPK 000
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Comments: 1
Registered: 01 Jan : 12:43
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WHERE on Electronickits.com are the PWM's??
I can't find them... maybe I'm stupid... but I searched every page!!
someone help!! I'm a mental invalid!!
cc to robert@allthingsrenaissance.com
THANK YOU!!!!
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Comments: 1
Registered: 17 Sep : 18:09
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Hey. i have no real idea about this stuff.... but i want to know all the electronics i need... (to make a Hydrogen generator) to do this... like a converter, PMW and anything else?? and you recommend a PMW but what do i hook that up to? like a wall outlet? or will that just short circuit it?? any info will help. because i made the mistake of just putting a plug into a wall outlet and attaching it to a couple of metal plates in the water and almost blew out my socket...
please help...
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Comments: 1
Registered: 14 Mar : 14:14
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Would a PWM help other h2 generator that use something other than plates for electrodes increase gas production.
Virgil
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Comments: 1
Registered: 05 Mar : 05:13
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Hi Brian,
On your site, there is talk of using a pmw to pulse the signal and to control voltage input.
My first concern is to use this on a bench is fine, but to incorporate it in a vehicle, you must add a power converter. Do you know if there is a pulse generator, that uses a power supply of 12vdc so that a inverter is not needed? It seems redundant to start with 12vdc, change it to 110vac, then to back to dc. I think that simplicity would be best, IF possible.
I also had a thought concerning high voltage also. I have gone to the web sites to check out the pmw’s but have no experience using one at this time. Can the pmw be used to supply pulsed voltage to a automotive coil? This would simulate the way a distributor makes the coil send a pulsed HIGH voltage shot spark plugs of a car. A coil in a 8 cyl. engine idling @ 1000 rpm will generate 8000 high voltages spikes to the hydrogen generator per minute. So instead of the pulse generator going direct to the electrode, it would go operate a coil to jack the voltage to 25k to 30k volts… how fast do the pulse generator operate?
Any thoughts or inputs good and bad would be appreciated….
Thanks for your time
Rick
rvtorent@yahoo.com
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Comments: 1
Registered: 29 Mar : 20:50
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Newbie since this morning .can I use hicker ss then light plate ?
also I have people that put 1 positive,3 neutral,1 negative and so on .Is this configuration better?
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Comments: 1
Registered: 12 May : 17:14
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Hey bryan. This generator looks like it would create a ton of hydrogen. Enough to power my 4 cylinder or at least assist it and get me great gas mileage.I'm curious however. With this design wouldn't the oxygen and hydrogen combine once they have been separated and become highly volatile? Can you provide me with the plans for it? I would love to build it and attach it to my truck.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 01 May : 20:44
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I'm not Bryan, but I thought I'd remind you that Hydrogen rises faster than oxygen when they are seperated.
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Comments: 34
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Each all thread rod is nutted to every other plate.
In other words two positive plates have a negative plate between them. The plates alternate between positive and negative. The only reason they don’t touch each other is because of the larger hole drilled in the plate wont allow the opposite polarity plate to make any contact through the nut. Then I used magnet tape to keep the plates uniform. And it seems to me that the magnet tape has benefits in the production oh h2. The magnetic tape is not conductive. .. I hope this helps you out. I really need to make a drawing, I know it is a little confusing with the way I word thing.
If you need any more help just keep doing what you are doing and I will help you all I can.
Bryan
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Comments: 34
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Oops sorry I forgot you first question
A pmw is used to regulate power to a motor
The one I use you can get through electronic kits .com
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Comments: 34
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Yes it will work, but you need to be very careful with the amperage draw. 36 plates in parallel will reach very high current draw. I was able to hit currents as high as 60 amps
With electrolytes it can get even higher. And with a pwm rated at only 15 amps constant
You will easily burn out your mofets. There is a guy on eBay that sells high amp pwm.
His is rated at 80 amps and can be converted to run at 120 amps... Get the highest rated one you can get your hands on it will keep you from burning up your electronics
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Comments: 2
Registered: 13 Mar : 10:49
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Bryan,
Interesting about using no electrolyte. Maybe something to do with the magnet tape you used? Do you know the grade of the SS light switch plate covers you used? I read that 316 grade Stainless is the optimum for no residue after many hours of producing HO gas. You can test the grade of the SS by using magnets. Magnets will not stick/ attract to high grade stainless. Cheap SS with attract slightly to the magnet. High grade SS is non-ferrous.(no iron) The only reason is that iron will rust and after a while (months of daily driving) you will will have to clean or replace the plates. I have cheap and high grade ss in my HO gas unit and I notice slight rust clr red on the cheap, the high grade nothing but clear water. I used 3%-5% "ph-up" from General Hydrophonics, and 97% rain water.
Just more info. to share. Never a dull moment when you seek to stay out of trouble.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 03 Jan : 13:56
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>> Magnets will not stick/ attract to high grade stainless
Commonly misunderstood fact about "stainless" steel, but as a general statement such as this it is False.
While it is true that some families of stainless steel are non-magnetic, the most common family "austenitic" steel, in fact is non-magnetic, but that has nothing to do with the "grade" of the steel, but of it's chemical make-up.
For reasons too long and involved to explain here, "austenitic" steel is an iron-chromium (making it "stainless" ), with nickel added into the mix, it is actually the nickel (a "magnetic" element on it's own, just as iron is ) that makes austenitic steel non-magnetic.
Which is why my very good quality Chef's knives will stick to my magnetic knife rack, they are what's known as martensitic steel, magnetic, machinable, heat treatable and a little less corrosion resistant than austenitic steel, but the fact that they can be heat treated means the edge holds very well.
Ferritic steel would actually be the best application here, it's less durable than martensitic or austenitic steels, but has a much higher corrosion resistance. and with a very small amount of nickel added it loses some of it's magnetic strength.
The "non-corrosive" properties of steel come from either chromium or less often phosphorus creating an oxidized layer on the surface of the steel, and when that layer is damaged the chromium or phosphorus in the steel simply oxidizes some more, keeping a protective layer of oxide on the surface.
>> High grade SS is non-ferrous.(no iron)
This is COMPLETELY FALSE, all steel, ALL STEEL contains iron, it HAS to contain Iron, otherwise it just isn't steel, steel is an Iron Alloy, period.
Ferrous is often confused with magnetic, or at least the ability to be magnetic, which is a big problem, and most likely the one we face here.
Commonly "ferrous" materials contain a lot of IRON, which we all know is magnetic correct? well...... yes and no, Iron in an alloy can lose it's ability to become magnetic, oddly the most common additive to an alloy that causes this is Nickel, which itself can be magnetic, so while you might imagine logically that "magnetic" Iron and "magnetic" Nickel would alloy to be "magnetic" it is the opposite. Gotta love chemistry.
So to reiterate...
Steel can/cannot be magnetic depending on the alloy.
And since I got off topic slightly....
A good quality steel, regardless of AISI grade will give ample protection against any possible corrosion that would form on the plates given that water liberates both Hydrogen AND Oxygen, and stray oxygen should oxidize any chromium in the steel if there is any sort of damage to it.
Also, do not confuse Corrosion with Electrodeposition, where the anode gives up material to the cathode, this often looks like corrosion, but is just deposited molecules, although steel reacts differently to electrodeposition when it is the anode depending on the alloy.
Years of work in a steel mill tend to make me point out common myths about it, sorry.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 18 Mar : 13:18
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Hello, new guy on the block. I have just started in this business and am happy to find somewhere to get and give info. I have just built my first generator , and want to hook it up to my car. But first I was reading about the differences in the SS switch covers. I purchased mine at Lowes , they were a $1.48 each and a magnet would not stick to it, and they work well for my cell. Another thing I found out is that the conatiner has to be completely air tight. I still have to install the extender on my oxy sensor before hooking up the generator. but a more pressing question for me is, How do I know it the generator is producing enough gas to make a difference. I see some of the ads on the ones for sale on Ebay producd X amount of liters per hour. The cell I made has 6 of the plates but I have no idea of the amount of gas it is producing, My generator holds 96 oz of water, and I put 1/2 teaspoon of Soda in it. The only thing I can tell is when it is bubbling in the bubble jar I get a minimum of 126 of the bubbles a minute. But I have no idea wat that means. Any enlightenment someone can shed on this for me would be gr8ly appreciated.
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Guest
Registered: 31 Dec : 17:00
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First off, it would be a good idea to view the video's on youtube
Loads of good info in them. ( Search "HHO" )
A simple way to test the volume... get a bucket and a water bottle, they're usually about 500ml. Fill the bucket with water, submerse the bottle in the water, turn it upside down and put our hho hose into the bottle. You want to time how long it takes to fill the bottle with gas, pushing the water out. Depending on the bottle size and the time to push the water out you can get an idea of your cell's production rate.
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Comments: 34
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It was 304 that I used .. not high grade but it dose work .
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Comments: 1
Registered: 15 Mar : 07:31
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Brian --
I'm no electronics expert, but I read all Stan Meyer's patents that I could find, and his contention was pretty much that the voltage should rate in the thousands due to the capacitance of the plates, but the draw should be in milliamps. His ideas seemed to revolve around negligible current flow coupled with huge voltage pressure.
Please, if I have totally misunderstood something, someone tell me! This has been on my mind for months, which is kind of weird for a guy who got D's in chemistry and physics back-to-back in high school.
This is what I understand the truth to be: There's a thing called "symmetrical stretch" that happens to water molecules when a resonant frequency is applied. The bonds between the oxygen and hydrogen atoms elongate and contract with the frequency. If you think of the atoms as three balls connected by rubber bands, it is at the moment the rubber bands reach their greatest length when they are susceptible to that nudge that Stan Meyer achieved with his experiments. He didn't need a lot of power to cut those elongated, strained bonds.
Making the water solution more electrolytic (by adding salt, for example) increases current flow, but that actually undermines Meyer's principles, because you don't want current; you want capacitance and resonance. If the resonating frequency has stretched the rubber bands as far as they can go, then a tiny current can cut them and separate the hydrogen from the oxygen.
Again, if I am being embarrassingly wrong about all this, someone please instruct me.
-- Flint
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Comments: 2
Registered: 19 Jul : 21:10
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Hi Flint, I dont think you are wrong but I dont think that there is just 1 way of doing this. When a singer sings a note and blows a glass all to peices there is no electricity involved, when a person wets their finger and runs it around the rim of a glass and it also shatters there is no electricity involved. I think water can also be split by a frequency also, with the help of low voltage and low amperage, just food for thought.
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Guest
Registered: 31 Dec : 17:00
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If I understood Stan Meyers data correctly, the electronics design he developed was intended to treat the cell like a capacitor using the water (only) as a dielectric. What his circuit did was charge the plates using both pwm and frequency modulation of the base voltage to a level that would exceed the dielectric strength of the water thereby discharging and generating the gas. Doing this at a rapid rate allowed his unit to generate hho gas very efficiently at a low energy cost in.
To Nathans point, I believe that the fequency combination that Meyers possibly stumbled on was the harmonic frequency of the plates he was using. Not necessarily a first harmonic but a second or third harmonic.
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Comments: 34
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Flint
I believe you understand it very well. That is how I also understand it.
I have not yet done any experiments with high voltage but this is on my list of thing to do. I think a good cheep place to start is using a neon light power supply 40,000 volts. I am like you I don’t have all the answers but I an actively looking for them.
Bryan
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Comments: 34
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Brad
yes that pwm will work good. just keep the heat sinks cool.
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Comments: 3
Registered: 28 Mar : 15:48
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Complete newbie here...
Can someone please oiutline what goes into this h2 generator, and where it comes out?
H2) goes in, power goes in, H2 comes out, what about the oxygen, and anything contained in the electrolytes?
What is the gas released? (I saw comments suggesting there woiuld also be chlorine in gas released?
Also, if it's not pure H2 given off, how would you separate out the gases to get pure H2?
Alternately (assuming it's a different question, how would you create something burnable in an engine from the gas given off (i.e. how to store the H2 +whatever, and then get it into the engine for fuel?
Sorry for the 20 questions, This is a really interesting area for me, and I'd like to get started playing with things!
Cheers!
MDU
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Comments: 3
Registered: 27 Jan : 10:27
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MDU Glad to hear from you,
I hope to answer all of your (20) questions with maybe 40 answers. ;) Hopefully without boring you to sleep.
Well to begin with a hydrogen generator is used to separate the atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen from water through a process called Water Electrolysis.
If only pure distilled water is used in this process then only Hydrogen and Oxygen are produced, Water is H2O. That is two atoms of Hydrogen and only one atom of Oxygen.
If normal city tap water is used, that water is usually chlorinated and as such chlorine gas will be released as well as gases from other chemicals added to the public water system. Minerals found in the same water will be collected on the electrodes of the generator. After time this will reduce the efficiency of the unit and the electrodes will have to be cleaned or replaced
As water is, and very contrary to common knowledge, it is not a very good conductor of DC electricity. Try it yourself. Get a glass of tap water and put the leads of an ohmmeter in the glass (of course make sure that the leads aren't touching), turn on the ohmmeter and set it to resistance. You will probably have to set it to the K-ohm (or even the M-ohm scale) because the resistance will be about 200,000 ohms. The purer the water is, the less conductive it becomes. Distilled water is less conductive, and de-ionized water is even less conductive.
At this level of conductance (or lack of conductance), the electrolysis of the water will happen very slow. Not at all what is needed to be useful.
In order to make the water more conductive electrolytes are used. the more conductive the water is the better the reaction will be to separate the atoms. The downside is that the more conductive the water is the more current (amperage or amps) the generator will draw. In doing so the wires supplying power to the generator will get warm or depending in the amount of current and the size of you wires maybe even hot.
To answer your question about separating the gases, I know it can be done but I am not quite sure how to do it. Maybe the link below can shed some light on this for you.
I hope this link works. If not just copy and paste it into you browser. [http://xnwp021.utc.com/ssi/ssi/Applications/EChem/Background/waterelec.html]
When this generator like this is used in an automobile usually both the Hydrogen and Oxygen are used. They are piped directly into the engine side of the air cleaner. The Hydrogen is the fuel and the Oxygen will make the combustion better (more powerful) in the combustion chamber (cylinder) of the engine. Oxygen is not a combustible gas but rather aids in the combustion of a flame. There are several sites in the internet that offer experiments to prove this.
I would say that almost all of the generators talked about in this forum are designed to burn the gases on demand. that is not to store them and burn them later.
The following is a link to show how to make a hydrogen generator that will be self sufficient and will power an automobile. Notice that a lot of modifications to the engine are needed.
http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/fuelcell.html
I hope you are still awake ;)
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Comments: 2
Registered: 10 Jul : 15:55
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After reading the problem about corrosion while sitting. Why couldnt you connect a spray mist of lubricant, such as WD40 to the fuel intake. And after turning the engine off : shutdown the main fuel line and while starting the engine or (since the fuel line is closed) open the lubricant mist for just a second or two and that should be enough to coat all the engine components until the next day or when ever it is ready for use again. Also WD40 is combustable so no problem burning it off when the engine starts.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 10 Jul : 15:55
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After reading the problems with corrosion, why not install a line to the fuel side of engine with a lubricant mist, and with the main fuel shut off. Inject the engine with lubricant (WD40) . That should keep it lubed until the next time you drive it, to prevent any corroding. Should it not!!!!
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Guest
Registered: 31 Dec : 17:00
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One of the reasons both gases are used as emc2 noted it improves the combustion rate of the gasoline. ( longer burn time )
Hydrogen alone is explosive, oxygen is an oxidizer ( helps make things burn ). The combination of the two mixed with outside air, which is a mixture of gases and moisture. This combination is what helps the hho gas improve the fuel efficiency without destroying the engine. Hydrogen alone reacts with the metals in the engine brittlizing them.
As far as storing the hydrogen. storing hydrogen "under pressure" is inherently dangerous and not recommended. Also frowned upon by many government agencies unless properly licensed. Legit companies that store hydrogen do so by converting it to a liquid by using other gases in liquid state, ie: Nitrogen and then pumping it into containers.
Compressing a gas generates heat, decompressing a gas generates cold.
The chlorine comment was also referencing the fact that table salt, NaCl, ie: sodium chloride, will break down as well generating the chlorine gas.
So much to do... so many ways to do it...
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Comments: 2
Registered: 05 Sep : 11:01
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hey how far apart were your palts spacced and did you connect wire to both sides of th rod's
Thanks Ken
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Comments: 3
Registered: 27 Jan : 10:27
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Brad,
For some reason I can't access the link you provided, but that sounds great!
I have made several generators of different designs and so far have founf the multiple plate design to be the most effective, but 2 liters in 2 minutes? I have never reached anything like that except when I used a solution of Potassium Hydroxide and water in a 2:1 ratio with two 3x5 inch brass plates 1 1/2 inches apart. When I conneted that to my car it immedatly started boiling and almost stalled my engine. Needless to say I have diluted that quite a bit.
I am trying to elimiate the use of harsh chemicals in this process but would entertain the thought of using other electrolytes. Would you be willing to share with me just how you were able to get 2 liters/min and how you measured it?
In my experimentation I have noticed that as the solution in the generator gets warmer the reaction gets more intense and draws more current. I am trying to keep at 20 amps maximum at 12 VDC.
To measure the amount of volume I would create, I was thinking about using a clear flexible vinyl tubing, formiing it into a "U" and fililng it about half way with water and connecting it to the output of my generator. Running my generator for a period of time then measuring the differnence in the water level, then calculating the volume moved and extrapolating that result to a different duration (i.e. 2 mintues, hours or whatever).
But in any case let me know your configuration and the solution that you used. I definitaly need at least that amount for my truck.
Thanks in advance and forgive me for the long windedness as I am very excited about your results.
If you want to E-mail me you can do so at:
pgendron@cox.net
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Comments: 34
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Hey Rick
above there is a banner (electronic kits ) where you can get the pwm. it works well.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 04 May : 18:48
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just found this site, find it awesome. there's so much info here i've been needing to know. i've already built two h2 booster units for my car, running on 12vdc, one unit w/ sulfuric acid, the other with baking soda for the catalysts seeing how i'm running low voltage with about 12-14 amps. i have noticed that neither unit are producing enough h2 to effectively change my mpg. the units are 4" pvc with two bolts as electrodes and two plates mounted on one bolt. my main question is my system is using low volts, high amps - and is that a problem when trying to create the most amount of hydrogen? my other question is about surface area. is the more smooth surface area better than the more external surface area, and if that was confusing, lets take a 4" square plate vs. a 4" square plate w/ 5/16" holes drilled all over it. which one would be better?
now instead of questions i have a few comments. first off, stainless steel is about the best metal to use because it is corrosion resistant and it's readily available. BUT, the best metal to use is lead. lead will corrode even less than stainless steel because lead reduced by nature, not oxidizes like most other metals. instead of gaining protons (when steel rusts), lead will lose protons.
anyway, i just want to know if it's possible to build a unit to run on 12vdc and produce enough h2 gas to run the fuel for the car at around 80% h2, 20% gasoline.
-freak-
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Comments: 3
Registered: 27 Jan : 10:27
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mal_adjustedfreak,
When I made my first generator, I was very green. I used about 16 ounces of water and 8 ounces of drain cleaner that was mostly potassium hydroxide mixed regular tap water.
I used jumper cables to make connect it to my truck.
Before I connected it to the battery of the tuck, I started the engine. Then I connected the negative side. When I connected the positive side the engine almost stalled! But it didn't and continued running. At the same instant the solution I had made was reacting very violently. It looked like rapidly boiling water. Not knowing very much more while it was boiling, I sat in the drivers seat to see how the volt meter in the dashboard was doing. It was fine, where it normally was while driving, but then I noticed something move under the hood. Then to my surprise I noticed that the insulation to the jumpers was smoking! Obviously I got out and disconnected the cables.
Did I mention that I was only using 2 brass electrode plates 2x6 inches and were 1.5 inches apart.
I must have been drawing at lest 80 amps. I work in a test lab where we test wire and cable. I was able to bring home a DC ammeter that can display DC amperage up to 300 amps.
The next week I connected the unit again the same way as before, but it did not even slow down the engine but immediately started at 60 amps and climbing. As soon and I saw the insulation smoking again I disconnected the cables. At that point I was drawing 80 amps. I still don't know what I was drawing before.
I have since diluted the solution dramatically and still draw over 30 amps when the solution gets very warm.
What I did notice is that as the solution get warmer the reaction is better, draws more current and creates more gases.
Try looking at the following web page for information on running your car on 100% Hydrogen.
[http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/fuelcell.html]
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Comments: 34
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Hello freak
Yes it is possible to produce enough h2 to run your engine... there is the problem with how efficient it is... you can produce an unlimited amount of h2 if you have enough electricity. As far as mixing gasoline and h2 this is where I am having difficulties... gasoline ignites much slower than h2 so therefore with h2 you need to retard your timing. They don’t work well together although I believe this is a problem that can be solved.
Now to your question about surface area... the greater surface area the greater amount of h2 you can make... But also the greater the current draw will be.
Now about lead... lead works great! But it won’t last... it gives its self up… in other words it will transfer its self from one electrode to another just like when you etch a circuit board or gold plate a spoon or a piece of jewelry.
Bryan
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Comments: 3
Registered: 15 May : 20:41
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ok so here are my thoughts, I've been reading up about this stuff for a while now and there are a lot of conflicting things between sites. Further up on this thread i saw someone mention that they were going to hook it up to their camaro, now I want to know how he planned on hooking it up because i've seen on another forum
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-24289.html
(it is a lengthy thread but towards the bottom) that a person did try to run hydrogen into 2 engines that ended up siezing up very quickly. Now that's not to say he knew what he was doing by any means, but on top of that I have seen no mention of rust issues because if i'm not mistaken combustion of hydrogen and oxygen creates water vapor. I have read that it only takes a little bit of gasoline in the mixture to clean out the engine but I haven't seen any verification and don't know if some sort of ceramic surface treatment to the internals of the block as well as a stainless stell exhaust system would be neccessary. My other question lies in that hydrogen burns quite a bit hotter from my understanding. Wouldn't this cause problems in an engine block that is not heavily modified for the heat?
If anybody has any answers for me or if I have been led astray at some point please reply. Thanks!
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Comments: 1
Registered: 24 Mar : 11:34
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I made up a small unit that produces about .5 l of hho /min. cold no pwm. I set it up with tap water and enough baking soda to give a draw of @4-6 amps cold. Draws more when hot, but stops heating up at @160 F, and about 9amps. I introduce the hho into a vacuum line below the carb on my 360 dodge v8. First tank of gas gave an 8% increase in mileage. Next was about 11%, next was 13%, next was 17% increase (mostly highway). No modifications necessary if you still burn some gas to keep everything dry. Seems to have smoother power, more torque. I suspect the climbing mileage is the result of all of the carbon etc. getting burned out of the engine, and more efficient burning of the fuel mixture. Building a bigger one now.
I use a low-draw switch circuit to the dash (on-off) with an automotive relay under the hood to put power to the unit right from the battery. Current draw shows on my dashboard ammeter (an unexpected bonus), and I happened to have an old electronic temp gauge which I hooked up to monitor the cell temp.
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Comments: 3
Registered: 24 Jul : 09:01
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This is the full article:
From: "Tad Johnson" <h2opowered@...
To: <watercar@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 3:39 AM
Subject: [watercar] Meyer Experiment Recap
For those of you who were not here, or have not watched
the Keelynet
boards
and such I will revamp my entire history of Meyer
experiments.
In 1996 I was an amateur electronics hobbyist. I had
been interested in
electrolysis and hydrogen study for many years prior,
but this year I was
watching the sci.hydrogen news group to become more
educated on hydrogen in general. During that year I met
a man who was good
friends with Stanley Meyer and regularly went to visit
him in Ohio. John
lived here in California, and had also invested some
money in the Water
07/24/2005 12:18 AMYahoo! Groups : energy2000 Messages : Message 20771 of 25951
Page 2 of 6http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energy2000/message/20771
Fuel cell project of Meyers'. I became friends with this
man and became
more interested in the Stanley Meyer system. As I became
more adept at
electronic design and troubleshooting I began to want to
try and duplicate
the Stanley Meyer process of breaking water with high
voltage at
resonance.
During that year and onward a couple years I was able to
ask John
questions
which he would then ask Stanley, and would then feed the
answer back to
me.
You see, Stan was not willing to just talk to anyone
about the process let
alone give away any secrets of the process that were not
mentioned already
in the patents. So I had to ask these questions through
John who was good
friends with Stanley.
My first few circuits worked but the cell would not make
any hydrogen,
especially under the conditions that Stanley and his
patents said they
would. The problem is that I would tune the cell like he
said and yet no
gas would be produced. It took three years of tinkering
to finally figure
out what I was doing wrong, and it was a big blunder.
The answer to what I
was doing wrong came to me through the sci.hydrogen
group by a man who
lived in Sweden and had already duplicated the Meyer
experiments based on
his patents. His name was Ted Zettergren, and he was an
inventor who
helped
other inventors file patents and market products. He
posted on exactly
what
he did and how the system worked. To my knowledge he was
one of the first
of three people who duplicated the Meyer experiments
successfully.
After Stan was killed I had no information other than
Ted's to go by, but
it was all I needed, or anyone else needs to duplicate
the Meyers'
process.
07/24/2005 12:18 AMYahoo! Groups : energy2000 Messages : Message 20771 of 25951
Page 3 of 6http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energy2000/message/20771
The process is achieved by the following:
1. Pulsing circuit or power supply capable of producing
600+ Volts @
20Khz+
@ 100uA+. My system was a simple, off the shelf inverter
with an input of
12VDC and an output of 1200VAC @ 20Khz @ 1mA. I then
took this circuit and
modified the circuit to run at 42.5-43.0Khz. This was an
off-the-shelf
inverter sold by Fry's electronics. It is a neon power
supply with a very
small bobbin core transformer. Anyone can buy this
circuit or one just
like
it and modify it to run within the specs I gave you. The
hard part is
obtaining resonance which takes years of electronics
expertise to do.
2. A small electrolysis cell with the ability to vary
distance between
conductors.
3. 2 - Chokes, one adjustable, one fixed.
4. One high voltage diode to go in-line with the cathode
of the power
supply output.
5. Inductance Meter, Capacitance meter, frequency
counter/Oscilloscope,
and
high voltage probe.
The key to the Meyer process is resonance, and without
resonance the
system
produces no gas. At 12watts you see why no gas is
produced without
resonance. This is a standard LC resonant circuit in
which you MUST (!)
match Capacitive reactance with Inductive reactance.
This then creates an
LC resonant circuit in which the two legs of the power
supply match in
frequency exactly. A Ham calc make the calculation of
resonance easy once
you know the capacitance of the cell and the frequency
you are driving it
at. Once you have your inductance calculated you then
buy the proper
chokes
07/24/2005 12:18 AMYahoo! Groups : energy2000 Messages : Message 20771 of 25951
Page 4 of 6http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energy2000/message/20771
that fall within the inductance range needed. The
adjustable one needs
(obviously) to be tunable within a small range, so that
when the cell
temperature changes and causes the capacitance of the
cell to change, then
the inductance can also be changed to keep the cell in
resonance. If you
cell has the ability to vary distance between
conductors, then you simply
change the distance and thus change the capacitance of
the cell rather
than
changing the inductance. You must vary one of the other
though. I have
found since then that the capacitance of the cell can be
changed and works
just as well as the inductors being adjusted. You don't
use ANY
electrolyte, you don't want ANY amperage at all, only
voltage @ resonance.
REPEAT, YOU DON'T NEED ANY CURRENT FLOW, ONLY VOLTAGE!
What I found frustrating is that the cell temperature
would change and the
system would stop making gas. In order to keep the
system making gas you
constantly have to keep the cell in resonance, and thus
you really need
the
system to be controlled by a processor, that constantly
checks frequency
on
both legs and then adjusts inductance to keep the cell
in resonance. This
is why Stanley move to the other patents where the spark
plus type of
electrolysis chamber was used instead of a large cell.
With the cell running at 1200Volts @ 1mA @ 42.8Khz I
found I could make
200LP/H of gas. Do the math and you will find that this
is impossible
given
our current understanding of electrolysis. If you scale
this equation up
you will find that you can make over 20,000LP/H of gas
for 1200Watts. This
is easily enough to run most any Internal combustion
engine. The only
problem has been keeping the cell in tune. An alternator
will easily
produce 3000 watts of power, so this is easily enough to
power the car on
07/24/2005 12:18 AMYahoo! Groups : energy2000 Messages : Message 20771 of 25951
Page 5 of 6http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energy2000/message/20771
this system alone. This is how the Volkswagon Buggy was
running around on
water only. The car has to wait a minute or two before
he stored enough
gas
to run the car, then once it was started and running it
would make enough
gas to run the car at up to 60MPH. I never saw this car
run personally,
but
I have two people that went to two showings and both
said it worked and
they verified there was no gasoline on board.
3 Years ago I sent Stefan and others this experimental
data and never
heard
back form anyone, nor did anyone ever repeat my
experiment. To this date I
know of only Ted, Me, and one other person who has
duplicated this
experiment and done so successfully. The third person is
a PHD on the east
coast of the U.S. who is in contact with Stanley's
widow. Stanley's
brother
now takes care of all water fuel cell business and
claims he will start it
up again and make sure it makes it to market this time.
But I have not
heard from them in years now. Stefan easily has the
electronics experience
to duplicate this process and also solve the issue of
keeping the cell in
resonance. I probably do as well at this point but I am
not going to do it
alone. It takes alot of electronics expertise and hard
work to solve this
problem of cell tuning.
Whew, my fingers are tired.......
Tad
Simple:
H2o(l) - H2(g) + O2(g) - H2O(g)
Yahoo! Groups Links
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Comments: 1
Registered: 29 Jan : 22:40
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Hello Tad,
I briefly remember something posted to Stefan a while back that sounded familiar to what you have described. I too have tried the "resonant " form of disassociation but I've not had good results. The first attempt was with the circuit schematics I obtained from a link at jln's lab years ago that remarkably "today" are the ones used by the "Hydrostar" group. Needless to say "my goldfish make more bubbles".I have also tried making "Brian's plate generator" which really works good 'but, it's a producer of brown's gas and the quantity is still insufficient for sole fuel source of an engine. The success that you have had is it replicable, or is the tuning so critical that it falls into the category of T.Bearden's MEG. Also, is the production H2 or Brown's gas?As far as the capacitance and/or inductance "timing", a second parasitic LC circuit built as a bridge or an embedded ucontroller could be utilized. If you have any other information on your replication I am sure we would all be most appreciative.You definitely have my attention.
Stephen
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Comments: 3
Registered: 24 Jul : 09:01
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No no, I have not done the experiment. I was just passing on information that I gathered from the yahoo groups.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 15 Jun : 08:05
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I need to find the ferrite core stan used from siemens ferrite cataloge ferramic permag powder 1.50inch x .25 inch Catalogue No CG2000-002-121 No F626-1205. I appricate if someone direct me to a supplier.
Thanks
MBE200
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Comments: 4
Registered: 26 Aug : 18:42
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were is bryan i need to talk to him it is urgent pleaase have im contact me ASAP
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Comments: 34
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Felix
I have not tryed to put dead plater between active plates. this sounds like a kool idea. I will have to try it.
thanks
Bryan
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Comments: 1
Registered: 21 Dec : 13:52
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Just a thought note. has anyone stopped in the malls and looked at the high freq fog generators in the clay dragons and water foutains? how much fine tuning would be involved to take one of those and have it seperate a bit more. instead of fog raise the frequency and maybe get h2 production? they are low voltage and high freq units and produce lots of fog. if we stretch the rubber band a bit tighter will it throw the h free?
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Comments: 2
Registered: 03 Jan : 13:56
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unlikely, your looking at at ultrasonic "speaker" for lack of memory, it atomizes the water making a "mist", really just water vapor, like steam, only done without heat
but your looking at something that is still in extreme Macro scale in comparison to the atomic bonds that hold hydrogen to oxygen
the amount of energy you would have to dump in to seperate water with ultrasonics would most likely be more than you would get out.
for a neat view into water and ultrasonics, google sonoluminescence
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Comments: 2
Registered: 17 Jan : 01:32
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If I'm ready the study of sonoluminescence correctly, it may not be able to be used for a fuel source, but it would make a neat looking party light, and could be rather fun to play with, albet costly at the same time. It could be that this is along the same lines that my dad was talking about with the frequency resonance of water. If that is the case, then it may be possible to harness the instant of the "event horizon" whereas the water molicules are at that increased energy. I personally don't think we will se anything that could harness this in our time, but it could be worked with later on to be useful I'm sure.
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Comments: 5
Registered: 26 May : 11:54
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Hello,
I thought I would tell you all about my experiment.
Suppliment to the gas, don't elliminate it
My friend gave me some plans. The idea is that the electrolyzer will produce both hydrogen and oxygen and this will suppliment your normal gas, not elliminating it's use, but reducing it. The claim was that it increases your gas mileage by 3 to 5 times what it was.
Use Oxygen as well
I liked the idea of using Oxygen as well, because I have done the physics and math in regards to how much energy it takes to produce hydrogen and how much energy hydogen produces. Producing hydrogen, using standard Electrolysis, as you drive, won't work cuz it takes more energy to produce it than you can get out. If you have dozens of pre-charged up batteries, all electrolyzing at once, this might work. You could do a couple batteries and power an ATV. But dozens' of batteries for a car is expensive and heavy . Perhaps Stan Meyers, high voltage, high frequency, low amp resonation method works, but that is too complicated for me.
Battery acid
The other thing in this simple design, was that it used battery acid in the water solution. To me, this means that the electrons will flow between the plates better and use less amps. The downside, is that less hydrogen and oxygen are produced. The advantage, is that now your electrolyzer won't use too many amps. This is important because an alternator only produces about 30 to 60amps, so it can't spare by 20 or so amps for use in the electrolyzer.
My first try totally failed.
I had installed an inline fuse, and it didn't blow. None of the water was used up, and I didn't get better gas mileage. I made 2 mistakes. First, I didn't read part of the instructions which said to test the electrolyzer first to see if it was working. The test was simple, just look for bubbles (like an alkaseltzer). If U don't see bubbles, then add Battery acid until you do. The second mistake, was not mine, per se, but an inefficiency in the design IMHO. The design called for only 2 plates attached to one of the electrodes. These plates were about 2.5 inches apart. That's when I remembered this website. I noticed that this websites design had like 12 plates, about 1/8th inch apart, and as I recalled, every other plate was aternately attached to the other electrode.
My second try partially succeeded
In my second try, I used 8 plates. 1 plate was attached to the anode, and the next plate was attached to the cathode. etc. I used all thread rod for the anode and cathodes. For the plates, I used galvanized plate covers (the ones that are sort of round/hexagon and used for covering up a junction box for a ceiling mounted light). Each plate has 2 holes. II used a rubber grommet in 1 hole to isolate the plate from the all-thread rod. For extra isolation,I also put one of those washers, with rubber on one side, on each side of the grommet. On the other hole, I just used regular washers on each side of the plate, and put 1 nut on 1 side.
To test it, I turned on the car, slightly removed the cap, so I could see if it bubbled (the bubbles are the hydrogen and oxygen. It didn't, so I added battery acid. IT bubbled more. So I added more. I added about a cup worth. I didn't want to add to much, so I stopped. I drove the '79 suburban truck about 45 miles. The fuel gage hardly moved. I was happy. I stopped and looked at the fuse. It had blown. I put another fuse in it, and it blew. I suspect, there's a short somewhere. I'll let you know what I find out.
I would like to try something else, but would like your opinions. I just read how some rockets are using Hydrogen peroxide as fuel. So, I am wondering if I should try electrolyzing this? Do you think this would be dangerous?
IF it works good, then perhaps, one could make a hydrogen peroxide generator (still?)...
Toby
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Comments: 34
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Hey Toby
you need to cut back alot of battery acid put it in drop by drop and have it hooked to a amp meter. 1 cup is way too much. the unit will only get real hot and blow the fuse.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 13 May : 18:09
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Bryan,
What is the container you use for your generator made of ? What are the dimensions and how do you have it connected to your vehicle?
Thanks,
Bill
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Comments: 3
Registered: 07 Mar : 12:56
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Toby
Have you run an MPG test ? I was curious to see what your improvement was.
Foxtrot70
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Comments: 5
Registered: 20 Aug : 16:51
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Toby
I use potassuim hydroxide as electrolyte, most do I think. You need an ampmeter, otherwise it is impossible to see how many amp you use, fill the electrolyte very slowly as you follow the ampmeter.
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Comments: 5
Registered: 26 May : 11:54
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Hello all,
Thank you all for your advice. The thing I like about this group, is the willingness to help others without ridicule.
Where do I get Potassium Hydroxide?
Also, I have a DVOM with a built in ammeter, but it, as are most DVOM's; limited to 10amps. So, where do I get an ammeter rated, say at 20amps or more?
So, as promised, here is what I found. It was a bit strange, so don't jump to any conclusions before you read it all.
I took the electrolysis unit out of the 'water solution' tank. I let it sit for 4 days until I had a chance to look at it. I then measured the resistance between Anode and cathode. It read infinity. Just to make sure, I also measured the resistance between the plates. They also read infinity. Remember, every other plate was nutted to the anode, and every other one to the cathode.
I put the unit back into the water solution tank.... and let it sit for about 1/2 an hour. I again measured the anode and cathode resistance. It measured like 0.4 ohms. (which is almost a short).
I took it out of the solution, and the resistance stayed the same. I measured between plates, and these also showed almost a short.
I concluded that somehow the rubber broke down and became porous enuf to stop acting like an electrical isolator, and that the water solution was causing a short between the plated and the all-thread rod acting as the anode (or cathode depending on which plate..).
So, I built a new unit, but this time composed only of 3 plates. I also used a nylon bushing and nylon washers instead of the rubber grommet and rubber washer. I would have used more, but the H/W store ran out....
I need to go to the automotive store and get some more fuses. I'll check out the ceramic washers my friend recommended.
Does anyone know where to get magnet tape? (Home depot).
I live in a small community which doesn't have home depot.
I'll let you know the new results...
Any other suggestions are appreciated....
Toby
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Comments: 5
Registered: 26 May : 11:54
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I want to make a correction because I found my notes on the resistance measurements I made.
I used 3 different resistance ranges on my DVOM. 200 ohm range, 2k range, and 20k range. The 2k and 20k range give their results in Kohms; while the 200 ohm range gives it in just ohms.
The following table gives the anode to cathode resistance measurement for the 3 ranges (200, 2k, 20k) for the unit (with the rubber grommet) submerged in the solution:
3.9, 0.120, 0.11
The 2k and 20k ranges agree with each other, but the 200 ohm range seems to differ from these. The 200 ohm range indicates 4 ohms, but the 2k and 20k range indicates 0.12 Kohms = 120 ohms. When the car is running then, the resulting theoretical currents would be:
12V/3.9ohms = about 3amps (200 ohm range reading)
12V/120 ohms = 0.10 amps
Neither one of these should have blown the fuse. What's going on?
The following is for the unit , with nylon bushings, submerged in the solution.
29, 0.56, 0.55
These resistances are roughly 5 times higher than the rubber unit. Therefore, I would expect roughly 5 times less current.
I want to also note, that when I first submerged the nylon unit in the solution, the resistance started out lower and slowly rose to where it was. This is an indication of a capacitor charging up. I suspect, it got charged up by the 9V battery inside of the DVOM.
In the electrolysis process, I suspect what might be happening, is that this capacitor gets charged up to some point where the water breaks down into Hydrogen and Oxygen. This is the capacitor's discharge point. Then it has to get charged up again, and the cycle starts over.
Any thoughts?
If my suspicions are true, there are likely some huge current spikes which would take out the fuse. One way to stop the spikes, would be to use current limiting diodes. This would limit the time it takes to charge up the capacitor, and thus slow down the time it takes to make Oxygen and Hydrogen...
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Comments: 1
Registered: 26 Mar : 19:30
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New to the group here but thanks for all of the great info. Couple of ideas that I'd like to share.
Potasium Hydroxyde is what is sold on Ebay as the "must have" electrolyte for hydrogen generators. I haven't tried it yet but I'll keep you posted when I try it. I bought an "Estes Hydrogen Rocket" toy and they use citric acid as the electrolyte. Some also recommend sodium chloride, (table salt), but again I haven't tried it yet.
I've also seen stainless steel sink strainers used. I'm actually using stainless steel mini-cheese graters and they work grate. haha $1.97 for 3 at Walmart. I haven't tried anything else yet so I can't offer any comparisons for you.
My generator is sealed and then vented through a water column, "bubbler", to keep any acid from escaping, then I run it through an electrical box filled with sand for a homemade back flash preventer. The vent coming out of the back flash preventer is copper and I've pinched it so it's just a pin hole and then I lit it to prove that it created a flammible gas. DON'T DO THIS!!! Everything worked fine the first couple of times, then I opened up the end of the tubing because when it burned it made a whistling sound. Big mistake!!! The home made back flash preventer did not work and the 1 gallon water bubbler blew up in my face. It blew the water jug to bits. Not cool. Luckily the explosion stopped at the bubbler and did not ignite the hydrogen generator. Soooo, just a tip to anyone wanting to ignite this gas, install a back flash preventer valve!!! There's a guy selling them on Ebay for $3.00. If you go to US Plastic Corporation you can get them for $1.53. I've got 4 of them on order. Hopefully they work. I'll let you know. haha
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Comments: 2
Registered: 29 Mar : 13:43
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OK this is very interesting site. This guy is hitting water at 42.8Khz through a Piezo Electric transducer, submerged in water and actually getting bubble to form.....Is this water vapor or hydrogen....???
Here is the link
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reginald/sondis.html
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Comments: 1
Registered: 16 May : 20:33
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I'm using the plates out of old hard drives in my reactor. I've buildt a circuit that allows me to control the pwm and the freq. of my dc. I'm running this in a gallon of water with a tsp. of baking soda. It's running at the moment at about 9.5 volts and 18 to 20 amps. I have it in an old co2 tank that has been cut down. The plans I started with are from: http://www.keelynet.com/energy/waterfuel.htm I think I have about 124 inches of plate surface in my reactor.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 23 May : 14:32
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Mythbusters recently did a show on hydrogen and while watching the episode I discovered that they were using those exact same plans for their circuit. But on there show they were not able to generate a lot of bubles. The hydrogen generator shown in the video at the top of this website generates more bubbles than theres did. But they did prove by blowing hydrogen into the carbourator from a compressed tank, that the car did run just fine.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 06 Jul : 12:51
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ok i'm not understanding this.. i've been seeing people saying you need 1.4v per plate, but you say you used 3.75 VDC @ 15 Amps for 36? just wondering about this because i'm planning on using 21 plates.
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Comments: 34
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it is the amount of the electrolyte that determines the current draw the increase in voltage will produce more h2 and more current, but also it creates more heat . heat is something you dont want it is wasted energy. more plates means more current.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 21 Jul : 21:48
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Bryan- Great Site. I have a few questions for you. I have made the 12 SS switch plate electrolysis setup and it works great with distilled water and baking soda and a 12VDC battery charger. I checked the PWM (pulse wave modulator) at ElectronicKits.Com and theirs oscillates at 400 Hz. Is this the one that you used? Also what voltage did you use for the input to the PWM to get 3.75VDC output as the input to the one mentioned is either 12V or 24V. Some documentation states that 20KHZ to 44KHz is the best pulsed DC frequency for electrolysis. What say you?
Thanks in advance ; Lynn
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Comments: 7
Registered: 31 Jul : 12:36
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Lynn,
That PWM you are referring to actually has two inputs. The primary supply power to run the circuit and you can wire an independant input just for your load. So basically you run the circuit on 12VDC and you can use any voltage up to 100 VDC for your load. The mosfet handles a maximum of 16A but the traces only handle 7.5A. If you build up the traces you can increase that. So your actual maximum amperage will be somewhere between 7.5 - 16 amps.
Shane
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Comments: 7
Registered: 31 Jul : 12:36
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I read several post with people trying to use resistance readings to make their amperage calculations. You have to have an ammeter to get accurate readings. When you try to measure the resistance in your electrolyte your meter is applying a voltage through your electroyte and causing a reaction so the resistance will be changing constantly. Auto stores may have 30-60 amp DC ammeters although they don't give a very specific reading but they'll give you an idea.
I use a Pyramid PS-36KX power supply. It will put out 30A continuous with spikes of up to 35 amps I think. It also has veriable voltage output from 12-14 volts +/- and has a built in ammeter and voltage guage. It's a great tool. Pyramid also has one that's slightly smaller, 20A I think. I can get the PS-36KX for $129 plus freight I think. The 20A one is about $20-25 cheaper I think.
Here's one on ebay right now.
[cgi.ebay.com]
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Comments: 1
Registered: 02 Jan : 07:24
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I'm new to this blog. And just recently decided to play with "Water power"
I've decided to use pulsed electro-magnets in conjunction with the anode and cathode to take a different approach to resonance. I'm not so sure I agree, that it takes years of electro engineering to be able to do that. Hopefully just a good understanding of what it is will suffice. The first shot will be with opposed coils around the chamber one above and one below the electrodes, pulsed at the 40khz range. will be using large number of coils of fine wire to keep current low to start with and will post results and pics when I start testing.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 12 Jan : 22:05
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Hullow, I am Vivek (Last year Bachelor of Technology). please give me the detail ckt. of Meyer's electronic pulse generator. It's written that meyer's ckt. helps to generate huge amount of gas at very low current. Problem is that we have given 10A but the gas generated is very...very.... less! Hence, it will be kind of u to give the ckt.
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Comments: 3
Registered: 07 Mar : 12:56
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Hi Bryan
I have been looking at various instructions and seen some of the videos on line where folks show their engines running but, unless I have missed it I don't see a Flame Arrestor on any thing. I know nowadays we don't have hardly any problem with back fire thru the air intake but, (my middle name is not Murphy however at times it seems like it) I would suffer an explosion wiping out the work on the generator not to mention my car. Do you or anyone else here have a Flame Arrestor that you would use? I checked with an alternate energy site and they recommended getting fine mesh stainless pad at the grocery and insert a tightly packed area of 1". When I asked how big of a diameter I was told "When you hear a pop, you'll need to add somemore". To me this is flying by the seat of your pants, too much! In general everything we do with hydrogen is experimental, we just need to keep in mind that this is an explosive gas under the right conditions!
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Comments: 7
Registered: 31 Jul : 12:36
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When you make hydrogen on demand there is never much gas in the generator and will rarely do any damage if you combust the small amount of gas in there. You don't want to compress much of the "browns gas" in the generator because it doesn't like pressure. To much pressure will make it very volitile anyway. You want to use it as you go. If you are using it as a suppliment to gasoline the generator will be connected to the intake or vacuum system of the engine which will keep the gas extracted as fast as it's generated.
That said, the wire mesh arrestor you are talking about doesn't work. I've heard people trying to blow the gas through sand and that didn't work either. The best way I've seen and tried is blowing the gas through a water bubbler. Worst case you can blow up the bubbler but it won't go any further than that.
Only containers I've seen blow up were flimsy plastic contaners. If you make it out of decent material you should be fine.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 28 Apr : 16:20
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Hi
Another new guy. Thanks for the great site.
I have been reading and studying about H2 generators for a short while now. I just recently joined a couple of the Yahoo groups also. I am hoping to increase the mpg on my Chevy truck. I read through the d6 & d9 pdfs . I am interested in building a series of cells. I was considering an Archie Blue type of design with the use of a bubbler. For maximum use of voltage, I believe I need a seven cell design. I have some questions for those with far more knowledge and experience.
Which has shown to be more productive, the separate cells linked together in series or the single container series cell with the dead plates? The truck has a 7.4 liter engine. I am guessing that I will need to produce a fairly large amount of H2 to get an increase in millage.
Is there a limit as to the percentage of gas that can be added to an ice along with gasoline? After a certain point does the % of H2 cause problems with timing.
I am thinking that there could be a point on carbed engines where the early ignition of H2 could become a problem, if the gasoline mixture was excessively leaned.
Also I have a question on using the H2 generator on a GM TBI system. I have gathered some seemingly conflicting information. I have read accounts of the gas being delivered to the vehicle with no electronics between the O2 sensor and computer. I have also read that a circuit board such as the EFIE offered by Eagle Research is required. For those of you adding H2 to the newer computer controlled engines, what is your experience?
Thanks again for the great site and information.
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Comments: 7
Registered: 31 Jul : 12:36
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The series plate design in one enclosure is best as long as you can isolate the electrolyte between the plates. If the current is allowed to pass around the neutral plate into the other end plate it defeats the purpose of the series plate. The current must be forced to pass through the neutral plates to get from the anode to the cathode. Now if your generator isn't like that, several separate parallel plate generators in series would be better.
There is a limit if you are supplimenting but I've never heard of anyone reaching that limit with the output of these generators. I wouldn't worry about that at this point. Rather I'd make it your goal to reach that point. If you can give your ICE too much gas you are doing really well!
EFIE is definitely required if you really want to see best possible gains. Your system will either keep adding more fuel or go into open loop mode in which case the engine will stay running rich. Modifying the O2 signal as well as several other sensors may be required to achieve the best results.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 14 May : 16:44
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I have a 4ft X 4ft sheet of 316 ss (I may use Ferritic ss as recommended above after this prototype). Before I cut it I'm wondering what efficiencies people have achieved by having the alternator charge the plates to produce the H2 O2 gas and running it in the car. Has anyone HERE reduced their gasoline usage? What are your fuel economy results after installation of a hydrogen oxygen generator? My goal is to produce a unit that will reduce my fuel consumption in my GMC Yukon. Currently I am not concerned with achieving resonance with the generator. I have read and heard that changes in the volume and temperature of the water will require constant tuning of the capacitance and pulsing current. Also, has anyone experienced the brittleness of the engine parts due to the hydrogen exposure. I'm also interested in learning what material would increase the capacitance between the plates to increase the production of gas. Would placing a plastic or glass plate in between the charged plates, but leaving enough space for water flow increase gas production? I know it should increase the capacitance since they are better dialects than water. How many L/min are needed to run my Yukon entirely on the hydrogen and oxygen gas or even at 1/2 normal gasoline usage? My view of this is that the generator (or fuel cell - whatever you want to call it) is a capacitor that is failing. However, would it be better to produce a high quality capacitor with smooth plates or a poor one with rough plates? Also what shape would be most beneficial to use the least amount of energy for gas production? Would round plates produce more capacitance than ones with corners assuming the surface area is the same? Do the electric fields lose strength in the corners? I know I have a lot of questions, but if any of you all experimenting out there can answer them I would greatly appreciate it. BTW this is a great forum! Thank you for having it.
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Comments: 3
Registered: 29 May : 06:07
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hey good day every body am kelvin plz can any one here explain how this is being done plz if you can email me the simple way i can do this project i will appreciate
ok
full explnation plz
to k
kevinlendo4real@yahoo.com
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Comments: 3
Registered: 29 May : 06:07
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hey good day every body can any body send me the full explanation hw to make this h2 generator plz send it to my email to kelvinlendo4real@yahoo.com
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Comments: 4
Registered: 01 May : 07:37
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Good Morning... My name is Gene. I'm a Newcomer to h2 generators. I have successfully assembled an h2 generator using a large whole house water filter cannister and 6 carbon plates. The cannister is approx 10" in depth and withstands 125 psi internal pressure. I also used various stainless steel hardware, nuts, bolts and plastic spacers. This is actually my second unit. My first unit I used 24 stainless steel plates assembled in pretty much the same way. Not really knowing what I was doing, After I had completed the first one, I hooked it to my car battery using jumper cables and it started making h2 like crazy. It didn't take very long for the pressure to rise to 60psi. I disconnected it from the battery and set it on the ground with an 1/8 aluminum tubing coming from it. I opened the valve and lit the end of the line with a lighter. There was a brief backflash and the whole thing went KABOOM! I was actually holding the top of the unit with my hand when it went off. Shards of plastic went flying all over my driveway. I'm lucky to still have my hand. Lesson learned. BTW.. I used plain old tap water from my well and just a little baking soda.
Now for unit #2. I purchased carbon plates from someone on ebay along with a backflash preventer(It's basically a check valve. No more explosions). All assembled and hooked to battery with cables. Makes lots of h2, better than the first one. This is where i'm stuck. It makes a lot of h2 but not enough to sustain combustion in my lawmower and after only a few minutes, the water starts to boil and makes steam. Not Good. What am I doing wrong? What do I do about the heated water. Do I send it through a cooling coil? Will it take more than one unit to provide enough h2 for stand alone conbustion? If so How many? Does anyone have an equation to determine how much h2 6 plates will make or how much water? Many, MANY Questions. What's a pwm? How is it connected to the unit?
My ultimate goal is to install 1 or more of these units in my car for stand alone use or at least to increase my gas mileage. I'd like to get a least 100 mpg.
Any input would be greatly appreciated... Gene
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Comments: 1
Registered: 02 Apr : 12:31
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Hi guy, i do love reading this site; my husband is the garage scientist & i've been doing all the research; i saw someone with a question regarding the use of copper plates, but i didnt see an answer.
Anybody?
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Comments: 34
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copper is not a good material to use as plates in electrolysis it wont last long. among other reasons.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 15 Oct : 13:59
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Hello Genetics, it is very interesting what you wrote. Make a try and search on this site, there some informations posted regarding the size, distance and current used ftrom users. You wrote about carbon plates and this is first time I see it in a cell. Can you give us some more information about it? Is is carbon, graffit or someting else? I expect that you probably have a mix gas of H O and C. My first remark is that you can not fire something that you don't know what it is, so please pay attention to your safety first. Regards..
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Comments: 3
Registered: 11 Oct : 15:26
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Sorry for dumb questions. Uh, what is "C"? Mike
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Comments: 4
Registered: 01 May : 07:37
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The discs are made of carbon and come fully machined and pre drilled, One hole in each plate is fitted with a rubber insulator to insure that you will not have any problem with a short in the system.In each box of (6) discs you will also receive a packet of (24) nylon washers, and (24) stainless steel washers to be used as spacers and to insulate between the plates. These contact discs are stacked 2 - 4 or 6 to a stack (depending on the height of your tank assembly)and produce enormous amounts of Hydeogen (H2). You will not have the problems with corrosion as you have with stainless contacts,they are not sensative to heat and can be used with all electrolite's.
I tried using KOH or Lye and the thing overheated in a matter of minutes. Now I just use water and Baking soda. So far these are the only 2 electrolytes I've used. The baking soda makes for much cooler electrolysis.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 14 Jun : 10:07
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Genetics
Can you tell us more about the carbon discs/size/where to buy?
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Comments: 4
Registered: 01 May : 07:37
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The disks are about 2.25 inches in diameter. I bought them on ebay along with a backflash preventer. Just type in hydrogen in your search bar and it should pop right up
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Comments: 2
Registered: 05 Nov : 21:31
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I have been doing some research on this subject for a while, and decided to share some of my thoughts. From what I know, breaking the hydrogen-oxygen bonds in water, regardless of the electrolyte, requires about 1.7 volts between electrodes. Less voltage than that either reqires some heat input to provide the difference in enegy, or the reaction simply stalls and doesn't occur. Excess voltage makes un-useable heat, so is undesireable. Common electrolytes used are lye (sodium hydroxide), potassium hydroxide, salt (sodium cloride), baking soda (calcium carbonate?, battery acid (sulfuric acid), and the list goes on. I am wondering why people aren't using neutral ph salts, (like sodium sulphate) to reduce the hazards of strong acid or base electrolites, which chemically don't decompose under electrolosis until after water . I am considering using epsom salt in an experiment (magnesium sulfate), but am not quite sure if the magnesium metal will deposit out of the solution before the hydrogen does.
I have read, experimented, and found that pulsing the input dc results in a surge of production, that tapers off once the signal has stabilized. I have not experimented with frequencies, so I don't know about them.
Stainless Steel seems to work much better for electrodes than aluminum, copper, or graphite. A key consideration here is the chemical interaction between the electrodes, electrolyte, and gasses produced, as well as the electrical condutivity of the electrodes.
Several types of electrode configuration exist, and the main features that increase energy conversion efficiency are electrode spacing (closer is better, unless contact is made), electrode geometry (concentric cylindrical electrodes provide a uniform electrical field, and produce marginally more bubbles than flat plates under solid dc signal), surface area (more surface = more production area, hence more production from perforated plates or mesh plates, though more amperage is required.
It is possible to separate the individual gasses by using discreet electrodes designed in such a way as to have two distinct bubble columns, and use two collection containers, one for each stream. This is impractical in a stacked-plate electrode assembly.
"Neutral plates" do aquire a charge, and do produce bubbles even though they are not connected electrically. I beleive the effect to be something like a capacator, where each plate gains a charge, and the electrolyte, haveing a higher resistance than the electrodes, acts similar to the dielectric. There is a voltage between neutral plates, for example, 12 volts run through an electrode assembly of +,N,N,N,N,N,- would result in a measured voltatage of ~ 2V between any two adjacent plates. Lower the number of neutral plates, the voltage rises. Increase the number of neutral plates, the voltage drops. Effectively, the total number of spaces between electrodes determinse the fraction of the input voltage between plates.
Some Speculation above has considererd using the ignition coil for a signal source or generatior, or something similar. The way the coil generates a high voltage electrical oscilation is the following:
An automotive ignition setup with a coil has a positive and negative terminal in the primary coil of an oil-cooled transformer, with different guage primary and secondary coils. The + wire is not wired directly to the battery, but instead is routed through the distributor. On points-type or ignitor-type distributors, the dc signal is interupted once per distributor resolution (1/2 engine revolution). This generates a rise and fall of voltage in the primary windings of the transformer, and thus an induced voltage do the changine magnetic field in the secondary wingings. Some ignition systems use a crank angle sensor to send a signal to the ECU, which in turn relays a signal to the coil, or coils. The frequency of the coil wire is always half of the engine RPM, unless the engine is of an unusual design, or firing frequency. Therefore, the coil signal is of a constantly varying frequency.
If someone were to obtain an automotive coil, wire a 12v dc chopper cirquit, and attach the output to the coil primaries, the coil would be continously firing. The same should happen if someone was to use a 12v ac signal into the primaries.
Chemically and physically, it is not possible to get more energy out than you put in. Of course, a hydrogen booster or generator is a complex system, with possible energy inputs being the electrical input (of course), thermal inputs (hot electrolyte requires slightly less voltage because of the heat engergy in the solution). At the best, you only get the same amount of energy as you put in out of re combining the hydrogen and oxygen gasses. Add the thermodynamic effiency of ~ 35% of heat engines, the ~95% efficiency of belts and alternator, and other energy inputs would be required to make up the difference due to efficiency losses and energy consumed in moving the car.
100% efficiency with no friction would do no more that allow the engine to idle indefinitley. The moment you put the engine under a load, all the energy would go to the clutch, to the driving wheels, and the engine would stall and not stay running without more energy input of at least the amount lost to the drivetrain.
Thus, the Official Party Line "you can't get more than you put in, so it can't work"
The other energy inputs (very seldom considered) could concieveably be from other reactants inside the engine (ie, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon monoxide, methane, and other stuff from the air, or subtle non-chemical reactions as might be evident in cold fusion, or sub-atomic magnetic fields. Additionally, the effects of resonant conditions on efficincy are often overlooked by the mainstream. So, in actuallitty, something like tha garret water carburetor could work.
Spiel over, I just thought I might throw in my $0.02 worth.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 05 Nov : 21:31
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I have done some experimentation with battery acid and epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) as an electrolyte. I get 9 - 14 amps with a 5 plate cell ( + N N N -), running a steady 12V (from a standard car battery charger), at ~ 3V in between plates. My electrolyte turned greenish after a few minutes, as the iron and chromium int the stainless electrodes form greenish sulphate salts. just some fyi.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 09 Jan : 12:41
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Turning water into fuel
The process of efficient electrolysis
And the operation of the water fuel cell
If you give me fifteen minutes I can show you how to change the world.
Water can be burned as a fuel source. Why hasn’t it been done before? Because people aren’t capable of following directions, and are either guilty of too little confidence in their abilities, or have too much. If you read this to the end, and follow my suggestions, and the links I provide maybe we will see this technology at last. Before I start there are some things you should know. I am not a writer, which will become evident if you choose to continue reading. I am not a physicist, a mathematician, an electronics expert nor a salesman. So this is free knowledge. However it may cost you some money…..you may be so intrigued by this information that you will buy the materials (I don’t sell them) and begin to experiment yourself. Stan Meyer fans, stick around, because for everything you think you know there is still more to learn, trust me, and bear with me while I attempt to tell the story first, and then we will get to the good stuff.
Stan Meyer was a man that made some very bold claims in the late 1980’s. He claimed to have run a car on water. In fact he did run a car on water. With an apparatus that he had designed and patented he was able to break H2O down into its component gasses. Not through electrolysis as it is originally thought of, but through an entirely unique electrolysis process. His claims were witnessed by scientists, government officials, including the patent officials where he had to prove his claims to get the patents, and numerous media outlets.
In 2005 I decided to build a propane injection system for a hopped up diesel truck that I have. With the horsepower in my NA (naturally aspirated) diesel I couldn’t afford to have my EGT’s get any higher, so I was looking to add water vapor injection with the LPG to keep the temperatures at an acceptable level. While searching I came across hydrogen or HHO boosters. I instantly became intrigued. Propane burns slow, combined with diesel it raises the exhaust gas temperatures (EGT), but hydrogen burns so fast it would actually aid the combustion without a serious increase in the EGT’s. That would allow me to increase my injector pump pressures, and add even more hydrogen. Win-win situation. Sorry to digress. I had no intention of buying any “HHO cell”. My intentions were to decide on a system, and build one that is custom to my application. So while researching these systems I came across Stan Meyer’s WFC, the water fuel cell. At first I was a skeptic, so I set out to learn as much as I could about the science behind it. My first stop was the internet where I found a quite a few people were already researching these WFC’s, after seeing that all of these people were working on the idea and yet no-one had been able to produce the results that had been witnessed and reported by impartial people, and even some that used to be skeptics I became even more interested. I am very good at solving riddles.
Never one to be guilty of too little confidence I set out to learn everything that I could about the science of electrolysis, the water molecule itself, and the inventor of the WFC.
Electrolysis is simply creating a magnetic field and using it to decompose chemicals into their components. In the form of water it becomes hydrogen and oxygen. My first experiment was two stainless steel perforated plates separated by 1/16 of an inch. For power I used a 12 volt trolling motor battery. I got some production, enough to prove that the science was valid, and warranted further study.
Next I studied the water molecule. I hadn’t really paid attention in school; I was too preoccupied with more important things. The H2O molecule is a neat little thing; it is comprised of two H atoms and one O atom. The little thing holding them together is the electron. The electron is the only bonding force, however try pulling three magnets apart, not very hard is it, now take a swimming pool and fill it with magnets and try pulling one of them out, it becomes a lot harder because the force is increased over the entire surface area, and they are all bonded together. That is water in its natural state. But what makes this situation interesting is that it is not a simple electromagnetic bond, it is an electrostatic bond called the covalent bond. Scuffing your feet loads you up with electro-static energy, and touching something conductive discharges that energy. That means that if the electrostatic charge on an electron can be discharged, it will cease to bond. At first I dived in, almost expecting to have to go back to school and get a doctorate in chemistry. After getting this far I decided that maybe I should investigate Mr. Meyer a little bit. If this guy is some kind of super genius then I wouldn’t stand a chance at learning enough without some additional higher learning. What I learned about Stan Meyer sent me right back to my studies with a renewed vigor. He studied at an advanced energy sciences college, but never graduated. Remember that fact because it will become relevant.
During my investigation of Stan I began to realize that he wasn’t a super genius, he wasn’t a mad scientist, what he seemed to be was just a “good old boy” with some above average intelligence. How had he come to this discovery? I read every article about, and by Stan Meyer that could be found posted on the internet, and published in any book at the library. (Yes they still exist) I watched every video clip with him in it; from news stories about him to home videos of his lectures and his “car that ran on water”.
“To study a thing is to understand a thing”
There in lies the secret, to understand the invention I didn’t first need to study the mechanics of it, I first needed to understand the inventor. He was what confused me, he confused everybody. He used terms that weren’t exactly correct, and in fact some of the things he said were quite misleading. His patents skated around the issues and seemed to be lacking in relevant information. So once again I went back to watching the videos, I studied them. I slowed them down I paused them; I watched his mannerisms and studied the man. I came to some very enlightening conclusions during that time. About not only Stan, but the people working on replicating his WFC as well.
No one likes to share their secrets, and every one has a reason why. Of all the places on the web that preach information sharing, only a few have attempted to share anything, and I believe that is only showboating. A technology worth billions is not something anyone wants to share, they want to be the first, and they expect to get rich either through sales or becoming famous. The simple fact is if the information is given away someone will get rich manufacturing the cells and or selling them. But if I give everybody the technology, there will be too much competition to charge to a fortune.
Stan turned down millions offered to him by the representatives of an Arab oil company to just sit on the technology. I believe him, and I suspect that they were from the U.A.E. Not Saudi Arabia as some have speculated. Gentlemen, I tell you now, I know how Stan made his cell operational; it worked as he said, and if anyone offers me a few million to stop telling the world, then I will take their money and take care of my family and shower them with gifts. And I highlighted it to let them know in case they are reading it. In the meantime I am going to let the world know that the technology is available, is viable and is extremely valuable. Do not let anyone get rich from selling you this thing which anyone can build, the key to the WFC is in the electronics that Stan used, and he had said that himself.
Stan used an old alternator powered by an AC motor, a signal generator, and his VIC (voltage intensifier circuit) along with his cell to produce this amazing amount of hydrogen or HHO on demand. And this is where the story gets convoluted so bear with me and I will clarify it at the end I promise you.
I studied the videos of Stan’s cell so that I could build one like it; I compared his cell to the hundreds on the web. They all used the same basic materials, and configuration, so all I had to do was gather a signal generator, an oscilloscope, and 12 volt DC power source, build the cell and get on with it. So that’s what I did. I chose to use flat plates instead of the tubes that Stan had settled on because I had some around my shop and from my experiments found that the shape wasn’t as relative as was the technique. Next I needed to double my voltage. This was an easy task, I simply used a 24v 850ma transformer that I had from an old fuel furnace. This solved two things, first it was close to the 26v that Stan used, and second it was low amperage. Next I made an induction coil salvaged from a stun-gun (crazy huh) and placed it in the circuit. By adjusting the frequency and pulsing the voltage I now had some pretty good production, next I gated the pulses switching the voltage off after about three seconds, when the power switched off the primary coil’s power was interrupted causing the secondary coil on the induction coil to fire sending the voltage way into the kilovolt range. The gas production was getting better. After a lot of toying with it I realized I had hit the same plateau as everyone else. The secret eluded me. I could make gas, but I couldn’t make the gas just pour off like Stan. That is until I started listening to Stan Meyer. In his videos his speeches are always rehearsed, that is evident because they are almost verbatim. So it would seem that Stan didn’t know as much about this system that he created as one would be led to believe, he never answered the technical questions asked of him by people that had obviously done their homework, he would just blow it off. One day I went about researching free electrons, and came across what I thought was a paper by Stan because it was discussing “liberated” electrons. Lo and behold it was written by Andrija Puharich. His studies and even his drawings were almost an identical match to Stan’s work, yet they were written before, and in the earliest stages of Stan’s development. I came to the realization that Stan may have been doing the same thing as everybody studying his work. Trying to replicate someone else’s work and be as cryptic as possible so that no one else would catch on to him, the only difference was that Stan had actually surpassed the other inventors results, that is when it hit me…..That is why Stan had went to that particular college and then dropped out. This man was no failure; he went to that school for a single purpose, to learn specifically about the studies of Andrija Puharich and none other than Nikola Tesla. He went to increase his knowledge on the very thing he was at home working on once he had learned what he needed he dropped out, he needed to apply his time to his mission. That was his goal, not a degree. It always struck me as odd that Stan would go from sales into science, he didn’t have a background in it, so how could this idea just “pop” into his head. He says God, I say whatever. Now Andrija had a motive to be tampering with this stuff, he had a background story. He found that he could disassociate the atoms in water molecules using ultrasonic and ELF frequencies while searching for a way to break up blood clots with non-invasive techniques. But once he was unsuccessful in that respect he moved on to other things. Somehow Stanley got a hold of this idea and started working on it. So ok, he felt that God had led him to this great idea, and maybe he did, but the concept justified his needing to learn more. (I should have been a detective)
But after further research I found that I wasn’t the only one that had stumbled on to this, there were others, and yet still no one had found success. Why?
With this new information I now had other avenues to investigate, new theories to test , more nights without sleep, and then another epiphany. Well actually a $139.00 stroke of good misfortune. My alternator went bad in my truck, the very truck that had started this whole mess in the first place. A diesel engine does not have all of the excess wiring that a gasoline engine does; it lacks an electronic ignition, a coil, and the computer “brain”. So as some of you that have ever put a radio in an older car may recall, if you wire it up directly to the battery you get to hear what? An incessant squealing that comes through the radio speakers, and when I changed my alternator I did just that, when I reconnected the battery and started my truck the radio was on an AM station. And of course I heard the whine change pitch when I revved the engine. This whine is caused by the rotation of the shaft (oscillations) creating a radio frequency that runs through your cars wiring. Yahtzee! In newer cars all of the excess wiring soaks up the signal and filters it out.
This is the reason Stan used the alternator, maybe he didn’t not have the knowledge necessary to create a complex circuit that consisted of an Amplitude Modulated audio frequency inducted onto a carrier wave. That is what Andrija Puharich had used in his studies, and an alternator does just that. So now I had the key or so I thought. If I used my alternator and removed the voltage regulator I would get a good amount of voltage and the audio frequency in one bundle, but how do I adjust the frequency? By adjusting the speed at which the electric motor turns my new “oscillator”. I didn’t have an electric motor around so I pulled the pulley, and used an electric drill on a bolt screwed into the shaft, I checked it with an ammeter and was getting way to many amps, just like everyone else, so I placed a jumper wire on the terminals to “fool” the alternator into thinking that there was a fully charged battery hooked up to it thereby cutting the amps to almost nothing and keeping the voltage high,
After hooking everything up to an old signal generator I started messing around with settings, by adjusting the dial on the drill’s trigger I could increase and decrease the speed thus modulating the audio frequency, the voltage did not go through a VIC as Stan used because I did not know how to build one, instead going through the stun-gun coil, now I looked for a toroid coil, because Stan said he used one, I found one and was going to put it in the circuit until I found out what they do, they actually filter out RF interference, which is exactly what the audio oscillator was needed for. I assumed that Stan had just made a mistake and actually had meant an induction coil because nowhere in his patent does he show a toroid coil in the circuit. Because if it had been, the thing wouldn’t have worked at the patent office, and if it was present in the schematic and not in the circuit it would have raised some eyebrows. Old Stanley had used that as a ruse, if someone had used a toroid they will not get the audio frequency that is needed to make the cell work. Misinformation to help protect his work from duplication perhaps? Since my cell now had an audio frequency going through it the electrodes were almost humming, they had become the “excitors” that Stan referred to. And my gas production, at times was just more than at previous times, but when I would switch the pulsing voltage to off and the secondary windings discharged, it scared me to have the thing indoors. Production went off the charts. I thought the water was going to literally boil out.
I have made the cell, I have investigated the man, and found out he was continuing Puharich’s work, and I later found out that his VIC is just a simple Tesla resonant tank circuit. But wait there’s more.
As I let the cell run and continued to play with the frequency, the pulsing time and the audio frequency (by varying the drill speed) I found sweet spots where the water was almost boiling and would disappear at a rate where it was actually a visible action. You could watch as the water disappeared, but then it would slow and have to be tuned again. After awhile nothing I could do made any production and I had actually topped off the cell three times. Lucky for me I was outside because what happened next would have blown the roof off of the house had I been inside with all of the gas I had just made over an hour period, I stuck my hand into the cell to pull the plates, with the electric off (of course) and it still almost electrocuted me, it actually sparked. I quickly double checked and sure enough everything was off. I checked the cell, and it had stored about 3 amps and 10 volts. I am not sure how much discharged when I stuck my hand in there, but let me tell you it cracked liked a baby lightening bolt and made my knuckles ache for a while. I thought that was pretty amazing; I decided to go over everything once more, just to make sure that I wasn’t missing anything. I still hadn’t used the oscilloscope, I don’t even know how. And later that week I had to return the equipment to the person I had borrowed it from. But I was fine, I was satisfied that I had actually achieved some success or so I had thought. I went back to searching for others that should have achieved success by now so that I could hopefully share my experiences…and yet no one had achieved anything, after two years not one other person knew this? So now my selfish nature has just reared its ugly head, I wanted money before I just gave my hard work over to some one else to profit from. I could care less about fame. So I went back to studying the tapes, I wanted to find out who Stan’s sources were, who offered him the money. Maybe I could get some of that. I would love to tell my wife that we are millionaires and that she’ll never have to work again, I’d love to be able to buy a couple hundred acre farm in Colorado and build some jeeps to wheel. I’d even move my mother in-law out there. (Playing on the heart strings for that bribe)
Life would be real sweet if I could just find out who wanted Stan’s work and get in touch with them. I found one of them. But in the meantime I wanted to perfect this thing.
While studying the tapes for the hundredth time I came to a point where Stan talks about the capacitance of the cell. I hadn’t really understood before but I think I do now. The cell works at high voltage while limiting the amperage. Think of the electric as water. The voltage is the pressure, the current is the volume. If you try to fill up a 5gal. container with a pressure washer it will take you quite a while to do it. But the stream will shoot a distance, so you can fill it up from across the yard. That is voltage.
Now fill the same bucket up with the garden hose that was hooked to the pressure washer, it will fill the bucket quicker. Twice as fast in most cases, but at a shorter spray distance than the pressurized stream. That is because you have lost the “potential” energy by increasing the volume, to put the stream out at the same distance (get the workout of it) you have to do one of two things, limit the volume(amps) which means pressurize the stream (induction coil and circuitry) or increase the flow rate (larger more powerful water pump/power source), and increasing amperage increases the danger, and increases the energy being used to create the gas, making it an inefficient process.
What we are trying to do is get the voltage to go a long distance through some highly resistive material, so by decreasing the volume we increase the potential (work that pressure alone can do) because it does not require more power, and volume (amperage) just fills the container (cell) faster, reducing and ultimately stopping its effectiveness.
So to say it in Stan speak (I hope you understand now). By limiting the amps we allow the potential (amp free voltage) to take over, yet we still ultimately end up with amperage saturating the WFC, this amperage comes from the minimal current we are putting in, but also comes from another source as well. Since there is no continuity for the current to pass through easily it charges the cell and becomes free electrons. And I believe that the audio frequency being inducted onto the anode acts as an inhibitor keeping the current from being able to leave the cell at the rate it is brought in to it. Also current is nothing more than electrons. By breaking the covalent bond, each molecule loses two electrons; these liberated electrons remain in the water as well due to the capacitance, once “the capacity” has been reached the cell can not release anymore gas because there are now to many “free” electrons hanging around in the cell that just reformulate the bonds and attach at free points helping to make the covalent bonds stronger by increasing the negative polarity of the molecules as a whole, and create a static layer around the cathode and anode. I believe that some of the free electrons do take on a slightly positive charge, this static layer that builds around the electrodes appears to trap the gas bubbles until it is discharged by either the high voltage being gated off and shaking the cell freeing the gas atoms thereby pulling the electrons away with it, or the polarities of the “exciters” being momentarily switched. But if we harvest those free electrons from the water we are helping the extraction process by taking the generated stored current from the cell. This current can then be used to supply power back to the electronics that power the cell. Since Faraday only discussed the actual fracturing of the covalent bond and did not account for the efficiency of higher grades of stainless steel being able to do the job without decomposing, and then “harvesting” the free electrons that were “liberated” in the process as well as those added by the process…… well I’ll just leave that argument up to the chicken before the egghead debaters for now.
All of this through luck, and misfortune. Those of you that are studying this phenomenon are on the right track but in the wrong position. Those who said it can’t be done, you are wrong, it has been done. Through the hard work and sheer genius of great men like Nikola Tesla, Andrija Puharich, and Stanley Meyer.
These men who have been shunned in our history books for being unconventional. Well if we are to examine history we will see many cases of men with unconventional ideas that were proven right. Maybe Stan can join their ranks.
An attempt at clarification
Now that you have the story behind this story, I will try to bring it together for you without all of the history. And hopefully in simpler terms then the mathematical algorithms and geek speak that Stanley and Andrija.
The main difficulty in completing this project without a doubt will be the construction of the electronics. A microprocessor will have to be built, one that can provide or regulate all of the necessary frequencies involved, as well as monitoring the cell to adjust the frequencies accordingly. That is easier today than it would have been even in 1992 when Stan realized it. And more possible than when Andrija figured it out in the late 70’s. Like most of us Andrija and Stan Meyer just could not complete that single most crucial component to the WFC. (I wonder if a nice little Palm Pilot could be utilized as the brain)
Here is what I think will be required: (Remember, I am no electronics expert)
An audio oscillator and maybe an amplifier, I didn’t use an amplifier but Andrija’s schematic shows one.
A custom built microprocessor / built to control the frequency and voltage parameters defined from the use of the signal generator and an oscilloscope during pre-production testing and monitoring.
The microprocessor should be of a small and efficient design capable of controlling the audio frequency / the voltage pulse timer / as well as the voltage frequency to the desired parameters as set through study with the use of a signal generator and oscilloscope during pre-production testing and monitoring.
The microprocessor will also have to monitor the cell, and adjust all frequencies accordingly, as the water’s natural resonance will change as the HHO is produced and contaminants are left in the cell. These contaminants change the ability of the water to maintain a steady resonance at a fixed frequency by changing the viscosity as the level of solid contaminants rise to a higher ppm as the water is converted. (Does anyone know what minerals cause a green/black scum to form? Because that comes out of the tap-water where I live, in about 10 seconds there is a ˝ inch layer of it on top of the water) (If you do this in a glass container on a ceramic tile as I did you will be able to hear the change in pitch from the glass & ceramic vibrations)
During the pulsing, the water will reach a state of near ionization, aiding in the breakdown process due to weakening of the electrons. The pulsing charges the H molecules natural polarity to a greater extent while weakening the negative charge of the O molecule and electrons, this allows the bond to move from 104.5° to a 109° angle, reducing the dipolar regions hold on the H molecule and stretching the bonding electron, which can now come into contact with more positively charged molecules discharging the electrostatic charge and momentarily switching off the covalent bond. And now the positive is more positive, and the stronger negative is weakened, since the oxygen atom is now less negative it actually has less attraction to the hydrogen atom preventing it from readily reattaching. When the voltage is turned off after peaking, the secondary winding of the induction coil discharges sending the voltage into the high kilovolt ranges stripping the atoms away from each other before they can recover. I believe that the audio frequency should be applied as a constant, not switching off with the voltage. And by using a Tesla resonant tank circuit in conjunction with an induction coil, voltage should reach exponentially higher peak kilovolts. (I still don’t know how that works)
Harvesting the free electrons from the cell will facilitate continued effective and efficient production, storing them in a capacitor and using them to assist in powering the cell. According to Stan Meyer, storing the current from the cell and then using it to power the cell you can actually create a closed loop system. This may sound impossible, but think of it this way, a steam engine boils water to make steam, the rapid expansion and movement of the air is what is used to move the turbine engine, so energy is lost in the form of heat, but a useful byproduct is now available to use again, the water. The wasted energy is in fact not the heat from the steam, but the heat used to create the steam. That energy is transferred into the steam, but since it does not become a source of energy it is now wasted. So by using high voltage potential to gather electrons from water you lose energy in the form of hydrogen, but since you are capturing the hydrogen for use it isn’t lost, and since you are now taking the voltage and generated current back into the system, and using it, it isn’t lost. The amps are recaptured in the form of freed electrons, the voltage potential’s power, but since it is using hardly any amperage, you need to add the kilovolt surges to make watts.…….I’ll stop talking there. It makes sense in my head, but it took me two long years to get my head wrapped around it. The WFC works, I have done it, except for the closed loop part, Stan has done it, and Andrija has done it. I wonder if there are others.
Also Faraday’s law is not broken as he intended it. He never counted on using the potential energy of electricity (voltage) he only thought in the terms of current, the power, he also never counted on harvesting the liberated electrons. So if you only think of it as using voltage to make usable electrons then the hydrogen would be the wasted energy, if you only use it to make hydrogen then the electrons become wasted energy in the form of both electric and heat. You can create heat, electricity (running a generator) and even desalinate water, there are a lot more possibilities then what I can think of. But no matter what the waste is HHO gas and electricity. Both are usable. At the end of the cycle using a car for example, the exhaust is water, but that water needs to be recharged with photons which come from the sun. So energy is being used, but not energy we use or have to pay for. (FREE ENERGY)
This is all I can do for now. When I have the money to purchase the electronics and start again I will. But in the meantime here is the secret; I have a lot more to learn about electronics before I could ever complete it. And a lot of you are suffering the same problem, to confident in your abilities to ask for help, and to unwilling to share your work out of fear of losing it. Since I can’t do it, I give it freely in the hopes that someone else can, it will take an electronics expert to design a microprocessor to do just what I have said here. And we will all be driving cars that run on water within a year. Sorry Big oil. But as it was said “we didn’t come out of the Stone Age because we ran out of stones, and we won’t come out of the oil age because we run out of oil”. We came out of the Stone Age because our technology grew, and an idea was born, and that man taught another man, and one after the other through history man has learned from man and we have grown because of our ability to learn from one another’s ideas. Only in this age of greed do we fear teaching because we may lose the fame and fortune to another. How sad. As for the learning, most of the people working on this technology are so smart that they look at the cell and see how it is done, so they try based on what they know, I wasn’t that fortunate, I looked at the cell and saw how it was made, but then I listened to what Stan was saying, and I had to learn what he meant, as well as learn what was going on. Most of these people already knew….and just like people have a propensity to do, they do not listen to what they already know and they just jump right in. If you look at the documentation and listen to Stan you will see that he used the voltage coming from an alternator that was also used to limit the amps, doubled with a VIC (Tesla’s resonant tank circuit) into his signal generator, then into the cell, only a couple of times is the toroid coil mentioned, but as I said it is either subterfuge, or he meant induction coil. And with as much as he has kept secret, and let speculation occur just to keep these very facts hidden, I go with subterfuge.
But I still wouldn’t mind those millions that were offered to Stan. I’d take the money; I have a family that I would like to spoil. In the meantime I would settle for free gas and electricity, imagine how much cheaper the world would be to live in without the extra bills. As for the economy; that’s just how the Feds generate their paychecks. So don’t worry about that, this technology would narrow the gap between the rich and the poor and do it by saving the poor some money, only big oil companies would feel the sting, and who cares about them?
Oh’ and that secret Government Agency that was going to fund Stanley….DARPA.
Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, high risk, high payoff research.
I contacted them and told them I’d like to talk to someone about the technology, that it can be done and I know how…..Not one person responded. In fact they made it impossible to contact them directly after that, you now have to get a job with them to work on any project. They won’t take ideas. I have also contacted the energy giants MOBIL/EXXON and BP, no response. They are only interested in Hydrogen from fossil fuels. They rely on the fact that one man can’t do it alone.
Only the people want this technology so we have to make it ourselves. If you think this is BS, which is up to you, fine keep doing it wrong, but if you already have a working cell, a signal generator, and an oscilloscope, what is the harm in adding an audio oscillator to your arsenal? If you use an alternator as the oscillator don’t forget the jumper wire, and use a dimmer switch on that wire to control the amperage. Too much will keep the alternator from transferring voltage though it will still create the AM signal. By the way, someone out there (I won’t name names) is working on Sonosonic breakdown of water molecules, basically taking a steel tube filled with water and vibrating it with sound waves so fast that they can get the water to split inside the area of cavitations. Sono is from sonar, which is sound. An electronic tuning fork in water, hmmm I wonder what would happen by adding high voltage DC and limiting the amperage to the milliamp level?………..
Anyway folks, I can only tell you what I’ve learned and hope someone smarter than me can take it to the next level. Give it a shot, and let us all know how you make out. I’m not saying I’m smarter than Stan, I only figured out what he did, he was on his way to perfecting it before he died. I am openly admitting I have gone as far as I can; the electronics are the key, the audio signal and pulsed high voltage coupled with the right frequency modulations. I am not even sure that super high k-volts are even necessary with the audio signal at the right frequency.
Do this and you have it. But if anyone suddenly does it and tries to make a huge profit from it without cutting me in for a piece….I’m coming for you, and I don’t want to hear that “coincidence” crap either. Do the world some good, free us from fossil fuels and the cancer it is putting in our air and water. Oh’ and make it so I can give my diesel another 50+ horsepower, if all the cars are burning cleaner a little smoke won’t hurt. Hell if someone can do it I’ll go with a gasser.
I’m not sure of everything that goes on in this system, it’s just the way it works. Try it for yourself. Most of the terminology is gleaned from Stan, and I believe he uses it because whether or not it is scientifically correct it feels right, and I know some will say there is no proof because I have no videos or pics…well people I wasn’t doing it for a movie, you-tube or a book, I was doing it to put it in my truck. And once I got it right maybe sell it for mucho dinero contante, but since it is a useless piece of junk without the ability to control it, I have no use for it. All I did was figure out why and how Stan used that alternator instead of a battery or battery charger for the DC voltage. As for the rest, look at what I am saying, and then listen to Stan’s lectures, it is that simple.
Or you can just do what I’ve said, but I’m sure you all are skeptics, lord knows I am. I’m not selling it to you, I’ve explained it the best I can, and I’m not saying, I’m running a car on it. I’m saying some electronics genius needs to do the important part and then we all can, that guy will be famous for it not me. If you want more I can’t give it, but I’m e-mailing this to every one I can in with the hopes that someone can fix us up with a program, or controller to keep it running instead of the constant tuning to keep it going. I’m sick of buying fuel, and paying for electric, (and I still want that HP for my diesel). Plus I can’t get rich off of something I can’t do, so I figure if I can’t be rich, and I’m not going to make someone else rich, the only other solution is to make a lot of us a less poor by saving money!
My cell was perforated stainless plates in a 1˝ qt. glass jar, nothing fancy.
A few links / make up your own mind
http://cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/2001/March/01.html (a link that talks about radio noise from alternators)
http://www.rexresearch.com/puharich/1puhar.htm (Puharich’s work) http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/meyerhy.htm ( Some of Meyer’s work) http://www.familycar.com/Classroom/charging.htm (A short course on the alternator)
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/ (good videos, these are filled with clues that helped me immensely)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2445602063454986281 (Meyer lecture pt1)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8307447514823199481 (Meyer lecture pt2)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2912352558373468441 (Meyer lecture pt3)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3531210909615191815 (Meyer lecture pt4)
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html (Meyer’s inspiration for the VIC)
http://merlib.org/node/5247 (A compilation of Meyer’s lectures)
Links to information on toroid coils and inductors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toroidal_inductors_and_transformers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_coil
http://www.estreetplastics.com/Acrylic_Tube_s/45.htm (cheapest acrylic cell tube I could find $20.00 for a 6” OD 23” long)
http://www.burnsstainless.com/304tubing/Straight304/straight304.html
(A good place to order stainless tubing)
http://www.thomasnet.com/products/tubing-stainless-steel-88672423-1.html
(Find a local SS supplier)
One other thing, Good luck!
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Comments: 3
Registered: 15 Jun : 15:22
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feariar,
I agree with your analysis of the path to a successful generater. I, too, was perplexed by the use of an alternator as the power source when so many other simpler and easier power sources are readily available. I have not done as extensve an investigation as you, and only began my investigation in the last few months.
I, do have the electronics and microprocessor design experience to build the necessary control system to bring this device into commercial viability. The cost to do so should not be particularily high.
Over the years I have designed and built all sorts of electromechanical systems from blood chemistry analysers to high speed machine tool control systems. My intentions related to this endeavor would be to help remove the oil cartel's leverage over oil from the US and honestly the world, as China and India will soon be the largest comsumers competing for energy beyond even our demands. If a little money would come my and your way as a result, I certainly wouldn't complain. I barely survived the financial consequences of a divorce two years ago and at my age, looking at working another twenty years to be able to retire at 76 doesn't look very appealing as fruits of working hard since I was 14 yrs old.
I would be more than happy to work with you to co-develop a working device that we can share in any profits from. I have already designed a very ecomical generater cell and have started down the path on the electronic design, hence, my reading your article here. I am still a bit of a skeptic, honestly, as my engineering training makes me a pretty firm beliver in physics and the energy conservation issues surrounding this device are intriguing, to say the least.
Stan may have actually have gotten it more right than even he realized when he commented that this is not a perpetual motion machine as it does consume water as fuel, although closing the loop around the system is difficult unless one considers what happens to the water produced after the combustion process completes and the water is reintroduced into the environment. For this device to do what it appears to be able to do, almost of necessity, there needs to be something happening at the subatomic level (quantum possibly) that allows the system, at resonance, to disassociate hydrogen and oxygen from water at lower than predicted input energy levels. There are few things that are free in this world and energy hasn't been one yet, however, it may be that nature provides the means of giving back the energy to the water at the atomic level after the atoms are recombined through combustion.
I await your reply, although, I will begin to apply what I know from my research and yours fairly soon.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 13 Jun : 15:45
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Mikrotek
If you have the chance, read the Andrija Puharich paper. Stan probably got his ideas from Andrija.
I have electronic background as well, having designed motors, power supplies and power amps over my professional career but never switching circuits. I will be happy to donate my two cents worth for free if I stumble into an epiphany .
Ther is an enteresting paper by Dan Danforth (SriLanka) that give the resonanant freqs. He has disappeared after publishing his paper, no phone, no address, no Dan . He was going to update us all on any new findings but.....
Also, Andrija talks about dealing with the resonance decay (damping) and subsequent loss of gas production. Might be of value.
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Comments: 3
Registered: 15 Jun : 15:22
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Is8682,
I haven't had the opportunity to read Andrija's paper but intend to do so. I have read several of Meyer's patents and they all repeat the same basic techniques, although not the full disclosure that is typical (or the intent) of a good patent. I will also attempt to fing the paper by Dan Danforth you reference.
The patent process was intended to bring new technology to the pubilc arena while providing the inventor a reasonable period of exclusive commercial use of the technology, so long as the inventor demonstrated due diligence in reducing the technology to practice with a commercially available device or process. Sorry for the aside!
From all my reading and review of the many attempts at fabricating and operating a viable HHO generator, there is one characteristic that I am certain Meyer got right, that is the necessity for the use of basically pure water, meaning NO ELECTROLYTE. The increased power input, byproduct creation, implicit cell degradation and waste disposal requirements of an electrolyte based approach discounts it as a viable generator. The result is that the amplitude modulated and PWM based excitation is necessary for high rates of gas evulotion at very low power input levels. This is clearly the winning design from many perspectives, the most important being efficiency.
The cell gas production drop-off due to "charge saturation" is very understandable (Thanks go to feariar for disclosing the characteristic). This charge saturation causes the water in the cell to no longer "feel" the oscillatory effect of the voltage amplitude modulation since these effects are in the form of an E-field modulation. It's analgous to standing in the surf with waves comming in and then going further out to the point where you're fully submerged. You no longer feel the efffect of the waves because they are over your head but they're still happening on the surface. Fortunately, this is one of the easier things to compensate for as what is needed is a means of coupling off the charge when the voltage between the plates exceeds a predetermined maximum voltage.
It is my opinion that the mechanism causing the molecular disassociation is primarily that of creating an oscillating E-field superimposed on a steady state high voltage e-field. This oscillating field causes a charge pump effect on the energy level of the water molecule that ultimately exceeds the strength of the electrostatic bond on the shared electron between the hydrogen and oxygen atom. The steady state field is needed to provides a means to keep the molecule aligned or constrained thereby impeding the charge absorbed from the oscillating field from being rereleased due to a charge induced reorientation of the physical relationship between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. This theory is consistent with the apparent need to provide the e-field energy at specific frequencies that are most likely related to the temperature of the water and the discret energy levels characteristic of electrons in atomic structures. That's my interpretation of "Meyer's speak" but with a little more of a physical chemistry basis.
Some have speculated that the excitation frequencies required are those related to the resonant frequency of the water molecule itself, this is not the case! That frequency is well known and used in microwave ovens to heat food. The processes are completely unrelated.
I have also seen discussion on using ultrasonic devices to produce the desired molecular disassociation, this too is unlikely as there is no change induced in the water molecule that would effect the elecrtostatic fields holding the molecule together.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 11 Oct : 00:36
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Hi all, i`m not a chemestry expert, but i`m very observer. And I think that Stan`s success has something to do with the electric engines he had put near the generato, if you look at the video when he starts the car in front the garage there is an engine near the generator, and on the car on other video there are three of them
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Comments: 1
Registered: 14 May : 17:35
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Hello:
new guy here just found your site and I have to say the info is great. One question I live in a cold weather climit. Alaska to be exact. I am worried about the water freezing. I know that you can add alcahol or window washer fluid (saw this on other sites) but I am worried about the chemical byproduct from these items. Am I worried about nothing? Great site.....
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Comments: 1
Registered: 15 May : 07:14
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is the PWM necessary for good hydrogen output? i was just going to make a fused circuit and run 12V directly from a car battery. in a sealed metal container with heatsinks and cooling fans
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Comments: 1
Registered: 15 May : 11:46
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I am about to make my first real generator and I work for a sheet metal shop and have access to anything i need. which configuration is the best??? s.s. plate or the s.s. wire in a coil configuration. also I expeirenced a lot of heat build up in my first small bottle gen. and that was with the s.s. wire coil and tap water. is heat always going to be a issue. because I was thinking I might incorperate a circulation pump and a small radiator in th front of my vehicle. to eliminate the heat problem. I am going to be putting this on a 97 ford expidtion with 212.000 mi.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 16 Jun : 12:02
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The problem with circulating water through the unit is that you have to generate at least some pressure to feed to the engine. Trying to balance circulation flow to zero pressure without feeding water into the engine is the rub.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 16 Jun : 13:59
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i too am going to modify a 97 expedition. are you willing to sell punched out plates made of 317 s/s or better?looking for 3" x9" + - if so how much for fifty plates.
reply to spfruscione@comcast.net
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Comments: 1
Registered: 11 May : 02:55
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Hi every one 1 quick question, Plates or Tubes?
Thks
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Comments: 1
Registered: 25 May : 20:56
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Hi All,
I am new to this but after viewing Stan Meyers device and doing some brainstorming it all became clear! Plasma ARC the water using a high frequency/voltage strobe circuit. You can avoid having to calculate the resonent frequency of water by simply using a potentiometer to adjust for different water contaminants on the fly! The electrolysis is aided by the heat of plasma arc at resonence. Resonence is achieved when gas production is at maximum by adjusting the potentiometer! This is kinda like adjusting a tuned port subwoofer by running the port in and out of the speaker box for tuning to a specific frequency.
What's your input on this?
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Comments: 1
Registered: 31 May : 23:49
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At this rate of hydrogen production, is separation of oxygen and hydrogen necessary. Your design looks like a "will try" experiment for me.
Thanks for posting.
Carl
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Comments: 1
Registered: 03 Jun : 17:23
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hi all,
would like to get a set of plans to move forward with research any available?
please send plans and instructions to:
n.geo@comcast.net
thanks in advance
Your Friend in Christ,
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Comments: 1
Registered: 08 Jun : 11:47
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im new to this can anyone email me some complete plans so i can get started with my own trials
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Comments: 2
Registered: 13 Jun : 15:45
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Hi,
GREAT IDEAS! I have been working on hho assist for my car only a short time and this question occured to me : RUST. Do we have to worry about rusting of internal engine parts given that no liquid water will be in the engine after it is turned off and since this will be hho assist to gas, there should be a film of petroleum on the parts. Does this make any sencs?
thanks
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Comments: 2
Registered: 16 Jun : 12:02
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Have seen several references to Carl Cella's generator. Won't call him a lier but the unit won't work from the plans. If he did make this work, something very major was omitted. There is simply not enough reactor area to make even a supplementary fuel let alone run a large engine. Don't waste your time and money on this unit.
He does make some good points on engine mods (if you get to the point of making enough gas) to keep an engine alive. That's the sole reason I fell for the design, hope to use the material for a working unit!
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Comments: 2
Registered: 16 Jun : 17:06
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Hi, I'm a new guy also working on a system. I want to use a PWM with my unit. My question is do I still need to use an electrolyte? Thanks in advance for any help.
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Comments: 4
Registered: 17 Jun : 13:13
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HELLO GENTLEMEN. I TOO AM NEW TO THE PROSPECT OF THE HHO MPG IMPROVEMENT DEVICE. I FOUND YOUR RESEARCH AND COMMENTS VERY VERY INFORMATIVE AND WELL THOUGHT OUT.
I MAKE STAINLESS STEEL HEADERS AND EXHAUSTS FOR MOST OF THE MAJOR MANUFACTURERS IN THE USA. I HAVE AN INVENTORY OF 304, 304L , 316 AND 321 STAINLESS STEEL. IN EVERY GUAGE, SHAPE AND SIZE. I CAN MANDREL BEND TUBING FROM 1.5" THROUGH 6".
I MYSELF AM USING THE HIGHEST GRADE OF STAINLESS, 321 THAT IS. I HAVE CRESTED A SITUATION OF MAXIMUM SURFACE EXPOSURE BY USING ULTRA THIN GUAGE STAINLESS IN A SERIES OF PLATES.
SEPARATING THE CATHODE AND ANODE PORTIONS WITH A SIMPLE GRAVITY DEVICE. THE TWO GASES CANNOT MIX!! WITHOUT THE HELP OF A PROTON POLYMER GEL.... WHICH I ALSO PRODUCE FOR A NON ELECTRICAL USE ACTUALLY.
I AM HOWEVER; A NEWBIE TO MAKING ONE OF THESE HYDROGEN GENERATORS FOR A 12 VOLT CAR APPLICATION.
COMMENTS ARE WELCOMED!!!
ALSO IF ANY OF YOU WANT TO BUY ANY CUSTOM PLATES IN ANY GRADE OR GUAGE, LET ME KNOW.
THANKS
JIM
PARTSCLEARANCE@YAHOO.COM
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Comments: 4
Registered: 17 Jun : 13:13
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I HAVE READ VOLUMES THIS WEEK AND AM HEARING OF USING STEAM AND HIGHER AMPS TO CREATE MORE GAS PRODUCTION.... COMMENTS??
BUBBLE BOWL VERSUS SPARK ARRESTOR???????????
SUPPLYING POWER THROUGH THE VOLTAGE REGULATOR TO BETTER MATCH RPM AND DEMAND??
COMMENTS?
PLEASE SEND TO PARTSCLEARANCE@YAHOO.COM
THANKS
JIM
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Comments: 4
Registered: 17 Jun : 13:13
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ONE MORE THING.... O2 SIMULATORS? REQUIRED OR NOT?
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Comments: 1
Registered: 18 Jun : 13:18
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you have to have the plates close to each other and in formation + - + - + - + - + - + - in order to make it work correctly. Also of course the + and - wires cannot touch or opposing plates can't touch.
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Comments: 3
Registered: 16 Jun : 18:20
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i''ve had a thought about using the excess heat thats generated.How about attaching a simson engine on top of your H2 generator and turning the wasted heat generated into electricity and feeding it back to the battery thats running your generator.Would this be possible?
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Comments: 4
Registered: 17 Jun : 13:13
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GENTLEMEN
I HAVE THIS UNLIMITED ACCESS TO STAINLESS STEEL IN ALL GRADES. I JUST BOUGHT A LOW MILE MINT CONDITION 1989 1.6 LITER TOYOTA THAT GETS 35 MPG FROM THE FACTORY.
I AM LOOKING TO FIND A LAB PARTNER OR PARTNERS IN THE CLEVELAND/AKRON OHIO AREA.
I WILL DONATE THIS CAR TOWARD OUR PROJECT THEN POST THE RESULTS HERE FOR EVERYONE TO USE.
I BOUGHT A BRAND NEW 4 CYLINDER 2008 PT CRUISER YESTERDAY THAT I AM PLANNING ON USING AS A HYDROGEN PROTOTYPE VEHICLE AS WELL. BUT LETS GET THE 1989 PROJECT MOVING FIRST!!
ANY TAKERS?
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Comments: 4
Registered: 24 Jun : 14:02
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Hi Stainlesssteelguy:
In your expert opinion, what is the name of the purest type of Stainless Steel--is that 321?
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Comments: 4
Registered: 24 Jun : 14:02
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It seems to me, after reading most of the comments here and also elsewhere on the web, that a new type car-computer is required and has the EFIE built-in. I'm looking into this in the fall and will post my findings here free-for-all.
Also, some of you where looking for a PWM device. I have a couple of which I will post the schematic within the next couple weeks. Keep monitoring my website for this.
As for the use of stainless steel, to prevent unnecessary maintenance on the hydrogen generator, I suggest to use only the purest type you can afford. I'm checking into the exact type needed.
Ideally, platinum should be used but is so darn expensive at about $34.00 / inch for a 28 ga wire.
Anyways, I know you can use tap water but is not recommended. For now, until a suitable filter is designed by someone which can be mounted in the car, I suggest to use distilled water--about 2 bucks per gallon at the drug store and the use of soda (the water softener type) instead of salt.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 01 Jul : 13:55
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First off, thanks for all the great info!!! Now that I know just enough to sound like an idiot (hence my screen name), I have a question regarding generator output.
I assume that the generator output has to change to maintain the same gasoline/hydrogen ratio as engine demands change, otherwise you would experience lean/rich fuel mixture. It would appear the varied output can be accomplished by tieing the engine's fuel injector pulses with the HHO generator through a PWM or some other generator regulating device. The higher the fuel demands of the engine, the higher the production of the generator, and vice versa.
In theory, the issue would seem to arise when fuel demands quickly change, as the generator seems to have a lag time. How is that lag issue addressed?
My guess is that an electronic valve could be installed to divert the incoming gas from the throttle opening to engine vacuum, when going from high throttle position to idle. This would keep the over production of gas from dangerously building up in the air intake during deceleration. The gas can then be routed back to the throttle body once the throttle plate moves off idle again. The issue here may be rough idle due to loss of engine vacuum.
The more difficult problem may be how to handle the sudden increase in demand when going from a cruise throttle position to lets say wide open throttle (WOT). A possible solution might be to tie the EFIE to an EGT and/or the TPS, to richen the gasoline ratio and prevent a lean condition while the generator production catches up to the higher demands of the engine.
Has anyone looked into these things, and if so, any suggestions?
Thanks
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Comments: 1
Registered: 07 Jul : 22:00
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is a pwm and a pulse generator the same? did anyone try using a car ignition coil for high voltage?
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Comments: 2
Registered: 04 Jun : 18:28
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Anyone in the Las Vegas area? I would love to find someone to work with on this. I have already finished my first example.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 14 Aug : 12:28
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Hi Mailhot,
You asked if someone was in Las Vegas to work with you on HHO.
I'm in S. California right now but I'll come to Las Vegas (I have a small place just N/O town) and would like to have someone to work with on another HHO system . I'd like to focus on figuring out the electronics for very low amperage and pulsing high voltage for high out put.
Your profile says you're in Georgia? Are you in Vegas now? How long will you be there?
You can write me at: sinco52@yahoo.com
Ron
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Comments: 2
Registered: 04 Jun : 18:28
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Is there anyone here who can produce enough hydrogen to run a little 5hp motor?
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Comments: 2
Registered: 17 Nov : 21:06
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No, nor will they ever. The whole idea of producing hydrogen gas (or Brown's gas) is one of using excess electrical capacity available from the engine's charging system to perform electrolysis and then re-introducing this gas into the combustion system to achieve better mileage.
Since this system is parasitic to the combustion of gasoline or some other fuel to run the engine in the first place it is not possible to run on a pure hydrogen system without simply purchasing compressed hydrogen, which is more expensive than gasoline.
The idea of a perpetual motion machine where the fuel is generated as a result of burning that same fuel is not possible due to the entropic nature of burning fuel. You can't get more energy out than you put in.
HHO technology relies on using wasted energy inherent in the nature of internal combustion. Using the wasted energy to the extent possible may improve the efficiency of the system, but you can never get away from having to add energy (fuel) to the system to begin with.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 18 Jul : 03:18
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Can we run our car with water and gas?
Can anybody tell me is the HHO Gas is real working or is another scam?
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Comments: 2
Registered: 18 Jul : 23:56
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hi there, I use water to fuel a car as a supplement to gasoline. In fact, very little water is needed, only one quart of water provides over 1800 gallons of HHO gas which can literally last for months and significantly increase your car fuel efficiently, improve emissions quality, and save money. I found the way through this site http://www.runcarsonwater.us i really recommend it to everybody, it's a nice eBook where you can find the instructions on how to do it! take a look.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 18 Jul : 23:56
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hi there, I use water to fuel a car as a supplement to gasoline. In fact, very little water is needed, only one quart of water provides over 1800 gallons of HHO gas which can literally last for months and significantly increase your car fuel efficiently, improve emissions quality, and save money. I found the way through this site www.runcarsonwater.us i really recommend it to everybody, it's a nice eBook where you can find the instructions on how to do it! take a look.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 23 Jul : 05:36
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Hi there is a Guy in Sri Lanka (Colombo), who used to make H2 gas by water and run his car , he runs 80 km from one leter of water.
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Comments: 1
Registered: 10 Sep : 21:08
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does anyone know what happened to the forum at hydoestarcar?
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Comments: 2
Registered: 23 Oct : 15:23
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Frist off, in any car 2000 or newer, running hydrogen as a supplement in you car is going to trash your gas mileage. There is this thing called a computer and a fuel map/curve that is programmed to make the car run at a certain amount of air/fuel. once the o2 sensor sees a 'cleaner' burn it's going to tell the computer something is wrong and the computer is going to go into "limp home mode" in other words, it's going to dump more gas in to the motor, hence your 'ains' from hydrogen is gone. in fact, you will lose mileage due to this extra gas being dumped.
There are however ways around this. Google HHo generator. we sell the parts to make yo water 4 gas workable by making the car think everything is fine.
i acheived 36 miles to hte gallon on a 1998 plymouth voyager with only 2 liter/hr hydrogen and gas.
this is a 200,000 mile van with 6 cylinders and a daily driver.
beta tests for this design can be found @ www.flickr.com/photos/archomgirc
beta tests were conducted on a 2000 ford F-150 and we doubled it's mileage
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Comments: 2
Registered: 23 Oct : 15:23
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edit to above post :
www.hhodevelopement.com
there you will find our plans and test results.
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Comments: 2
Registered: 17 Nov : 21:06
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This website doesn't exist. Try again?
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Comments: 1
Registered: 04 Mar : 13:31
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Hello all, i am new at this and just beginning to try to asborb all this information out there about this process..the pro and con's.
First i have a question...about using stainless steel for feul cells
if using stainless steel anything like cooking with its inconsistant spreading heat uniformaly could this be the same thru the field trying to generate? is there better material to use?
here is a stupid idea like i said don't know anything about this..but if one could generate enough gas for a car to run lets say 70 mph...but haveing all those power on demand problems..has anyone try to use bleeder valves for pressure and a valve on the throttle control the valve would be on the feul intake of course....i probably sounding like an idiot..lol but who knows..and thanks
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Comments: 2
Registered: 03 Jul : 16:06
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Take a look in Silicon Chip magazine June 2009 page 8. They realley don't want to know about hydrogen enrichment of fossil fuels, do they. They will publish anything that poo poo's it but not one of them purports to have any practical experience in this field or even to have read any scientific papers on the subject. A little odd? They also seem to believe the Americans played golf on the moon in the 1960s wearing tin foil
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My h2 generator
